Tris, you think like a lawyer and not like a businessperson. I guarantee you that only a badly run business that is failing to reach its potential would ever consider using its legal obligations to its customer as its customer service policy. McChrystals and Toque, for example always seem to go way out of their way to make their customers happy. They have bought my loyalty with their considerateness, even if they hadn’t already deserved it from the quality of their snuff, which they had. That’s why you should avoid placing lawyers (or barristers) in any area of your company other than the legal department or risk management. They’re crap at understanding human stuff.
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As many snuffers here who have tried Princes snuff, none of us have ever seen a tin in such bad shape. This shows that it is not a ‘normal’ thing for princes snuff or any other F&T snuff to do. This leads me to believe that it could be a manufacturing error either by contaminants getting into the snuff during packaging or a problem in the manufacturing of the tins. I would think Wilsons would want to deal with this, if nothing else to look into it and see what did go wrong so that it doesn’t happen again. It could be something as simple as a faulty seal on the inside of lid that allowed it to breathe air & moisture in & out over the storage period & this breathing along with vapors of the tobacco & flavorings cause the corrosion. Its possible there was a whole run of bad Princes tins put out by wilsons & they all went to one distributer & then on to one store & P&C.com might have them all, who knows. But like I mentioned before, both Wilsons & Pipes&cigars.com needed to be informed about this so both could deal with the problem. P&C does need to look over their stock to make sure they don’t send anymore out, & Wilsons needs to make sure stores are not selling bad snuff. And if its found that P&C.com has a whole batch of bad Princes tins then maybe Wilson’s needs to recall all the bad snuff for their own interests since there is no expiration date on the tin. You would think WIlson’s wouldn’t want to be putting anyone at risk of health problems related to sniffing this snuff & make sure all contaminated snuff is pulled from the shelf before anyone else gets it & someone not knowing better might snuff through the whole tin. It is in Wilson’s best interest to look into this even if its just giving an explanation of what causes the tins to fail, not to blow the customer off completely. Because a proper made tin & shipped out with a tight lid should last many many years. Unless of course the store loosened the lids then keeps them in a damp basement 100 feet from the ocean shore or inside a salt water aquarium.
I think it probably happened on the distributors end honestly. I’ve seen some amazing stuff ruined by the middle man, especialy since the middle man probably doesn’t deal in one type of product (i.e. just tobacco or the like) and has the highest chance of creating the kind of possible cross contaimnation that would do this to a tin (seriously humidaty shouldn’t effect this type of tin like that). It’s also really patheticly common for various distributors to send out overages (more then was ordered) instead of actualy dealing with ruined product. Then again for all I know wilson may be the distributor. Though it seems like to me the biggest diffrence is between what Americans and the British seem to expect. Or how things are done. And no I really don’t include Toque as a British company since they are clearly far more international then wilsons, and mccrystals also seems more international then wilsons. Either way they’ve probably lost some customers either way (one of the reasons some companies don’t go international is a matter of customs [not the type that has dogs sniff your packages either]) Oh well again just some thoughts. As I’am not trying to convince anyone of anything just sharing some thoughts that haven’t been touched on yet.
Tris, it indeed might cost them money to do something they are not legally required to do. The legal standard is the bare minimum. Going the extra mile is what separates the winners from the losers in the marketplace. Good will is an intangible assett, but a real one. By hewing to a strict legal standard, WoS demonstrates how little they care for their reputation with end users, which has become as corroded as the tin in question. How much does that cost them? BTW, a shill is a person who is planted in an auction to up the bidding. The term also describes one who poses as something he is not while pursuing a hidden agenda. You have come here with what many consider a skewed outlook, only six days ago. I am not accusing you of shillery, but you can understand how some might be inclined to deduce it. I look forward to reading your input on other threads! Welcome to the forum!
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I just think that Roderick and Namrata have set the bar too high. We’ve become spoiled with their customer service. (Just Kidding) Firms like Toque & Dolakia are shining examples of 21st century snuff manufacturers (good thing they’re a decent distance from each other or they’d be arch rivals!).
merdock69, don’t forget the great customer relations with Jaap Bes of De Kralingse. It is great to have such good communications with the ones making the products you enjoy.
Too true Trout. Customer service is everything in my opinion. I’ve read posts where toque gets lost in the mail or destroyed and what does Roderick do? he promptly sends out more. Mars is always prompt with their service and adding a little something extra with orders, to me it’s worth the extra effort to send a money order even if they lost their credit card server. And so many others go out of their way to make the customer happy. Wilson’s response in this matter is absolutely horrific, no matter whose fault it was. I’m ready to boycott all their products. There’s just no excuse for their response and it should be “rewarded” by not buying their snuffs. And on that note I think it may be time to boycott Swisher products too. And I hate to do it as I love square snuff and thoroughly enjoy most of the other varieties. They were so nice and sent us those coupons back when but the last time I heard from Mike at Mars, who so graciously accepted the coupons from us, they have not bothered to reimburse him…still! Can you imagine how many of these he accepted at $2.50 a piece?!! How many of us had like 10 coupons each! But that’s not the whole problem. Has anyone been able to get a straight answer on where to find the varieties that they mention on their site? I’ve asked several times in the past 9 months and been ignored, but yet they do manage to send a few emails per week wanting me to play swisher trivia or whatever. What gives! If the manufacturer can’t/won’t tell me where to find their products who the hell will!!!
onefortheroad, There were a few here who did get a response back about the hard to find snuffs. Bigsnoot, Mo & deficiency. Swisher said they would have a local sales rep contact them. I know Mo had back & forth conversations with one rep but the rep didn’t carry it because he only carried the ones most requested & had the best sales… The rep gave him 2 outlets to check out but Mo did not find any of the hard to find snuffs just the common ones there. If you remember this post: More from Swisher/Helme I think the best way to get these other snuffs would be to take a trip to West Virginia & visit the factory.
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Guys thanks for your support on this topic. I really appreciate it. I have some good news for me and good news for everybody. After I received the email I posted yesterday from Wilson’s, I emailed the retailer pipesandcigars.com. When I turned on the computer today, I had two emails, one from P&C and one from Wilson’s. Both letters expressed the appropriate concern and offered to replace the tin. Most importantly, the mill manager, Dave Atkin answered my original question and said not to use the snuff. I am going to send the tin back to Wilson’s. All’s well that ends well. Thanks again to everyone for their support, I really believe we should all stick together on issues in our best interests.
@tris- you’re absolutely right that the problem lies with the shop that sold the product. but wilsons response (originally) was unacceptable and the person that sends out a response like that should be fired. the proper response should have been something like – “sorry to hear about this issue, we’ll work with you to resolve the problem, don’t use the snuff in question, we think that retailer in question should replace item, if in the long run we can’t get the retailer to replace said item rest assured we will make sure you do get a fresh tin from us”. And at that point, regardless of how the situation transpired, a good manufacturer would send out a nice sample or coupon or replacement, especially considering the relatively low cost of a can of snuff. It’s not like he got a bad car or computer or something that costs real money. And it makes sense that snuffbox questioned the manufacturer as he was just trying to find out if the product was ok to use. I’m glad to hear that wilsons and pipesandcigars.com have resolved the issue appropriately at this point. As far as the swisher thing goes they need to do a better job than that. They should be able to say where to find the product be it a little store on a deserted island or through a sales rep. And I mean a sales rep that indeed has the product, and doesn’t say he only has the other products you aren’t interested in. Someone from that company should be able to say where to find the product on a store shelf being sold at the retail level. If I was looking for the elusive toque schnazzberry would they hook me up with a sales rep that only sells wholesale and worse yet doesn’t have schnazzberry? Should I take a trip to England to get what I want? You can bet your ass Roderick would never let it come down to that. (hope you don’t mind me using you as an example Roderick…go toque!) Hey Swisher…REIMBURSE YOUR RETAILERS WHEN THEY ACCEPT YOUR MANUFACTURER COUPONS!
Thats good to hear snuffbox.
Good question bigblue1, I imagine the older snuff companies are resting on their laurels so to speak and merely conducting their business as they have always done. Meanwhile roderick and namrata have their fingers on the pulse. Anyone who is new to snuff and knows how to google is gonna end up here eventually. And based their reading here they will probably end up buying some toque… Not to say that with all the new snuffers, that other companies sales wont increase. But I’m sure they aren’t increasing at the rate they would if they were involved in the community.
Tris, I didn’t say you were a shill, Snuffbox did. You asked " what’s a shill"; I only defined the word. In fact I point out that I am not accusing you, so please don’t take it that way. I am very glad you are here to add your legal knowledge to our discussion - truly I am. In my first post to this thread, I told Snuffbox not to expect anything from Wilson’s and to go after the retailer by canceling the credit card transaction. I agree with you that going after the retailer will be most effective here. My background is in public relations and advertising, not law, so we do see things differently. Public relations in the modern academic sense is all about effectively communicating with a myriad of subgroups - each with their own special interest. We see a company as residing in the middle of concentric spheres of influence - shareholders, creditors, suppliers, employees, peers in the market, news outlets, wholesalers, government agencies, retailers and of course consumers. Each “public” has it’s own set of concerns and relates differently to the company. An effective public relations effort defines a relationship goal, and a message and media strategy for each discrete group. For a company like WoS the process would start with a communications audit. A survey would be conducted and a picture would emerge of the company’s standing vis-a-vis each public. Problems might come to light and could be dealt with proactively, preserving key relationships and engendering new ones. A communications audit establishes a base line for company relationships and can be re-measured at intervals to track the progress of communications programs. Using established survey methodology, it’s very scientific. The law tends to be reactive and come into play to redress harms caused by one party to the other. Legally a company has no contractual obligations past the first party they sell to. But to build brand loyalty, a willingness to take on additional burdens is often necessary. I have done a lot of consultative selling in my time, and the watchword amongst the best people in the sales game can be summed up: " People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care." The legal outlook is even more succinct: caveate emptor.
What a big fat bologne sandwich this thread was!
Mmmmm… Bologna
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