I was in town today and thought I would treat myself to some Smith and Sons snuff. When I arrived, it seems that the shop has been repossessed by the landlords and Smith and Sons is no more. There is a Bailiffs note pasted to the door and the shop is empty. Sorry to see this shop go, even though it has been a shadow of it’s former self for the last few years.

Thanks for the information, but I’m not surprised.  If this had have append a few years ago I would have said this is a black day for snuff.

I noticed it was shut a couple of weeks ago, and wasn’t surprised. I worked nearby for nearly a decade, until five years ago, and it was convenient, even helpful on occasion, but the staff were sometimes hard work and the prices rarely tempting.

I guess that, surrounded by the bars and clubs of Soho, they made most of their money on cigars and the prohibition will have hit them hard. But there’s been a lot of ‘redevelopment’ around the Charing Cross Road, and that always makes landlords think about raising the rent or terminating the lease. Many of London’s more pleasant shops have been done that way.

However, with the resurgence in snuff, it could be a golden opportunity for a motivated and energetic entrepreneur. Despite the rumours about London’s weather, it’s substantially better than Berwick’s.

From what I understand, most of the traditional London Tobacconists are reporting good sales and The Smoking Jacket in Earls Court is going from strength to strength and now carries our whole range. 

There’s another bit on my own personal history vanished from sight then.  

Very sad. I guess that’s one less place to visit now, or have any hope for.

It’s been dying on its feet for years.  perhaps there IS some chance that it will be snapped up and turned into a great purveyor of baccy things again.

I wonder where their stock and loads of memorebelia have gone.

Awaiting some sort of glorious resurrection hopefully.

Fribourg & Treyer suffered death by the long-drop; Smiths by slow strangulation. The shop was only a shadow of its former self after genteel Vivian Rose retired - and the prices were outrageous. Even so, it’s sad news to hear about the closure of a business that has been operating from the same premises since 1869. And what of the Highlander. For one hundred and forty two years, like a sentinel, he faced the shop door, witnessing the entry of the great and humble from Victoria’s reign to the twilight of Elizabeth II. Think of the ghosts that would appear if the images reflected in his painted eyes came back, much as the sea is said to eventually return the drowned from their watery graves. Perhaps though, after his long vigil, he could do with a change of scenery. The F&T brand is now owned by Wilsons of Sharrow. The next question is what happens to Smith’s snuffs?

@PhilipS that third paragraph was very poetic!

Well, to be honest, Jackpot, Smith’s Highlander was a bit of a runt compared to the manly mien of other effigies, but it’s still a sad loss. J&H Wilsons had a superb one-armed Highlander. He originally stood outside a shop in Portsmouth, but was kidnapped by sailors. On hearing that Lord Nelson had lost his right arm in in 1797, the sailors similarly mutilated their Highlander. That, at least, was the story one heard when Westbrook was open to the public.

@PhilipS 

Would you consider writing a book on the topic of snuff? Your knowledge and writing skills would surely turn this project into an instant bestseller (at least inside the snuff community) and a wonderful testimonial for generations to come.

Second that.

I’d definitely like to read that book.

@PhilipS  You could write something for the snuff taker’s ephermis.  I’m sure they would include it in the next issue.

Granted, I’m new to all this, but there does seem to be a very secretive, almost clandestine, world to snuff. What with all the mystery with regards who makes what for whom. This and the tread about Viking emphasise this. One would have thought in a world as small (relatively) as the world of snuff, a little more openness would be a good thing, at the end of the day, we’re going to buy it, whoever makes it. It baffles me a little. 

It shouldn’t when making a contract blend the person it’s for doesn’t want to give too much advertisement to another company especialy if they ever switch who makes it for them. Also the it could hurt the sales of the other brands they sell which the other brands may not like. There is more too it then that. But thats standard with contract brands of all sorts.

A true shame. If Smiths had been bought by the right people with the right ethos this landmark in Snuff’s history could have gone strong for many years. 

@Talljim - I have been saying that for years. The silly closet world of contract brands and concoctions like ‘Jaxons’ passed off as new snuffs. The need for it has always baffled me as I like to see who makes the products I spend my money on - especially if I’m buying something new. Jaxons from Gawith I would have absolutely no issue with, jaxons by the new snuff company jaxons, as implied, just seems like some species of fraud.

Oh, that’s so sad to hear this news.

I used to take phone orders for snuff from Vivien Rose, with his smooth distinct voice, I could always tell it was him, he looked very distinguished too I could just imagine him working at the shop at ‘84 Charing Cross Road’.  He once visited us at Westbrook Mill I recall. It was nice to have a retailer in the heart of London and it seems so sad. I think there’s something on youtube about the shop with Stephen Fry if you google it. 

I would love to have a look at the merchandise in there bound to be something from J & H Wilsons. Yes the snuff boy, (highlander, known as snuff boys) what will become of him? That’s what saddens me the most all that history, where will it do to who will know it’s story in the future? We had about 15 snuff boys upstairs on the corridor, very erie but I often wonder where they all went to, there was even one of Joan of Arc!

@gillybean129 - Yeah, I assume you’re referring to the Disappearing London clip with Stephen Fry and Suggs, there’s a link to it in the FAQ section in Snuff Archive: Literature, articles, videos and other multimedia.

It is very confusing. Gawith snuff made by Poschl, some big company called Imperial Tobacco could own all the snuffs in the world. This talk about Jaxons pnly makes me more confused. anything i’m trying to say right now is probably coming out confusing. basically what @Talljim said.

Think of one of the big motorvehicle companies of the world owning something they didn’t know they had, and by a long extension of corporate twists and turns ends up with a guy in a shack making bolts. Snuff has a few family owned companies in the UK whilst brands like JandH Wilson’s are owned by big tobacco. You would struggle to find someone at their head office who knew what snuff was. The snuff world is essentially a vague sort of place.

The even more sad thing is I think it could have survived if it had been better managed. Other London specialists are doing well and some are expanding. “My Smoking Jacket” (Earls Court) are the only London specialist tobacco shop to carry our whole range and they are reporting very healthy sales of snuff.

@Talljim i have worked in a factory, and have learned a few things. Namely, certain “cheaper” products are comprised of the exact same process and materials, only the label changes; occasionally the materials are swapped. Think about that the next time you pay $2 more for a brand name.

@PhilipS: “The F&T brand is now owned by Wilsons of Sharrow. The next question is what happens to Smith’s snuffs?”

For many years, until late 2009, they were all blended by Samuel Gawith’s (this may even stretch back as far as the later part of Vivian Rose’s reign).

Some of the blends are already available under similar names from Samuel Gawith; others (such as the glorious Café Royale) are now custom blended using the same recipes for Snuff Store (their Café Noir is the resurrection of Café Royale).

I was in town today and thought I would treat myself to some Smith and Sons snuff. When I arrived, it seems that the shop has been repossessed by the landlords and Smith and Sons is no more. There is a Bailiffs note pasted to the door and the shop is empty. Sorry to see this shop go, even though it has been a shadow of it’s former self for the last few years.

I was doing a Google search for Smiths and was directed to your message. In fact it’s what prompted me to join Snuffhouse. I was in London (visiting from Vancouver) in January of 2007 and stopped in at Smiths, on Charring Cross Road. I was told by the person in the shop that he’d just taken over the business and would soon be setting up worldwide snuff sales via a website. Great I thought, finally a source for my SIN!!! I bought a container of High Dry Toast which finally ran out a week ago. I’m not a user of tobacco, but do enjoy the occasional pleasure of snuff, a sip of dark rum with a couple of friends. I never did find the website and am sad to read your message of Smiths closure.

I visited Smiths a few times around 2009, when I lived in London. The people in there were rude, abrasive and knew nothing of their products. I wanted a recommendation for a pipe tobacco called Dunhill My Mixture 965, and I was recommended Samuel Gawith’s 1792 flake. Anyone who knows even a little about the world of pipe tobacco would know that these are about as far apart as it is possible to get. And with regards to snuff? They had no Golden Cardinal, no George IV, and only a large tin of Cafe Royal. The sort of 1oz Samuel Gawith tin that you pay £2.50. It cost £7.50…! I think I paid the extra £5 for the London postcode and incredibly rude service. I think Smiths died long before it was shut down.

cut em a break both go in pipes and have numbers in their names, so what that they don’t taste or smoke alike. Oh wait that’s always horrible when that happens.

I wonder, if Vivien Rose is still around, what he thinks of the way the store that ran for so long, and that he managed well (as far as I can tell) lost it’s way, it’s name for servise and eventually it’s business?

cut em a break both go in pipes and have numbers in their names, so what that they don’t taste or smoke alike. Oh wait that’s always horrible when that happens.

The fact is I like both tobaccos, but it’s like asking for a substitute for a whisky and being offered an espresso. No idea what their products were!

Heh… And I’ve heard of people trying SG Black Coffee and Cafe Royale side by side and claiming Cafe Royale is better. Good to know. The power OV a Name.

The F&T brand is now owned by Wilsons of Sharrow. The next question is what happens to Smith’s snuffs?

For some while these were sourced predominently from “three mills in Kendal” - since Illingworth’s is no more, it seems the vast majority of G Smith’s “own” were sourced from Sam Gawith’s. Certainly most are now available with Samuel Gawith names, mostly reasonably easy to identify. I have found Bob Gregory (one of the Directors at Gawith’s, and their present snuff expert) more than helpful on a few occasions. Thankfully Sam Gawith’s and Wilsons of Sharrow between them are keeping many of the best traditions of G Smith and Fribourg & Treyer alive and available for our gentle sniffing pleasure.

stapf said “the power OV a Name”. I think that’s a little perverted for this forum. (I’am hopeing at least he gets that joke). Power OV

It is very confusing. Gawith snuff made by Poschl

Not quite so. Poschl seem to have some connection with Gawith Hoggarth (although where the GH snuffs are made is not clear - they’re certainly not the same source as the oily, uber-mentholated German sorts). Samuel Gawith snuffs are still hand made at Kendal Brown House on the 18th Century mill bought (second-hand in Glasgow and shipped south by pack horse) in the 1790s by Thomas Harrison the First. Handed down through his son (Thomas Harrison the Second), it was TH2’s daughter, Jane, who married Samuel Gawith (the first), and by this route that the Gawith name became the trademark. So, mother of Samuel Gawith the Second was actually granddaughter of Thomas Harrison the First, hence there is a history of family lineage not so different from that of Wilsons of Sharrow. Gawith Hoggarth was founded later by members of the original Samuel Gawith (Harrison derived) company seeking independence. There’s a potted history of snuff in Kendal on the Web site of Samuel Gawith & Co. http://www.samuelgawith.co.uk/?PageId=4 Hope this helps a little.

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I haven’t been in UK in about a decade and certainly one could explore its rich history for decades…London itself can be explored for years and never cease to learn. I do wish I had the chance to see either of these SHOPPES in there heyday. But grateful for I read on SH and what else the Internet offers in form of videos and reading. In the interest of. continuing this thread, I am posting the below link which has quotes in it from Vivian Rose from NYTIMES article from 1983 ( I am sure this article is already posted in the SH Library… So please excuse the duplication if you already have read or seen it) http://www.nytimes.com/1983/03/23/garden/snuff-tradition-that-still-persists.html

@Fretless For the last couple of years Smith’s was in business most of their snuffs were produced by Gawith Hoggarth. The last editions of them were even sold in GH style plastic tubs with the Gawith Hoggarth name on them. Prior to that they were in Samuel Gawith vacuum tins, and although no SG name appeared on the tins they all had an SG character and no doubt were made by SG. Interestingly, my first Smith’s snuff from back in the 90s was in a glass bottle, it was Lemon, and bears striking similarities to GH Dry Orange, and was likely a re-branded version of GH’s now defunct Dry Lemon. My conclusion is that they’ve switched back and forth over the years, or as you say have sourced from all three Kendal mills. The good news is that the snuffs are still made (with slightly revised names) by Gawith Hoggarth and are being distrubuted by Mullins and Westley along with the Covent brand (which of course is made by Wilson’s of Sharrow). Everybody got all that? Its going to be on the test.

In the last couple of years before they folded, G Smith’s went to GH for some of their blends (or sorts), but were then unable to get all of their previous sorts since some of the recipes (not least Café Royale (Black Coffee) and Otterburn (Otterhound)) were recipes held by SG. Certainly, there is documentary evidence (Vivian Rose himself on record in newspaper articles) that G Smith snuffs (or some of the ingredients for them) were sourced during Vivan Rose’s time from all three Kendal mills (SG, GH and Illingworth’s). For many years in the 90s and up until a couple of years before G Smith’s folded, their main supplier of “house” sorts was SG (I have this from SG themselves) - in the last few months/years, it seems G Smith’s went over to GH for some or all of their sorts (although, as I say, with some apparent difficulty on some sorts). Given the manner in which it would appear that the last proprietors of G Smith did a bunk (bailiff notices on the door and so on), it may well have to SG’s fortune that their share of the G Smith business had dwindled some. … and yes, one of my earliest G Smith snuffs (from the late 70s or so) is in a glass bottle - Otterburn - another from the same period (possibly the older of the two) is an “old SG style” 1/4 oz tin of Golden Cardinal … happy memories

Well, Cafe Noir (SnuffStore’s version of Cafe Royale) and SG’s Black Coffee seem to taste different to me, but then I’m working on the dwindling remnants of the first, and a tap box of the second…

It is difficult to compare, given slight batch variations, degrees of freshness, suitability of storage and how ones sense of smell changes with atmospheric conditions and levels of physical health. I liked the Snuffstore over the SG but I am quite suggestible and bought into Cafe Royale being the ‘authentic’ recreation.

@HR_pufnsnff Café Noir in the screw-top tins SnuffStore used to supply keeps better than Black Coffee keeps in SG’s tap boxes. It’s better still if you buy a 250g tub [I recommend _My Smoking Shop_] - and works out a lot less expensive (about half the price of tap boxes). @khalid As with any art form, there will be a very slight batch variation - not least because every batch of tobacco will vary slightly. The blenders at Gawith’s (and at Wilsons’) are meticulously careful, but there will always be very slight batch variations. In addition, as you rightly say, the degree of freshness makes a huge difference. I keep supplies of my regular snuffs in the refrigerator, decanting small amounts to pocket/desk boxes regularly. Even if I re-fill weekly, there is a noticeable difference before and after refilling a box - even with boxes that appear to seal well.

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End of the line for Smith’s

Looks like there’s now no chance of Smith’s ever being recreated at 74 CXR. Indeed, the whole thing looks rather grey. I am guessing 150 years of history have been unceremoniously ripped out, or painted over. A sad reminder of the transitory nature of almost everything on this Earth.

This is what the new proprietors describe as their new-shop-in-74-charing-cross-road.

:((