“I’m not trying to argue, but isn’t the oldest continuously manufactured, (allegedly) unchanged snuff actually W.E. Garrett? Their trademark goes back to 1780, and Garrett snuff presumably existed before the trademark came into being.” Sorry, I was referring to English snuff as per the thread’s context and should have made this clear. Trademarks started life in the USA in 1870 rather than 1780. “Conwood has in Garrett Snuff, the oldest continuous trade-mark in the United States, one of ten trade-marks recorded on October 25, 1870, the first day the US Patent Office began granting trademarks.” http://mchsociety.org/Sub-Pages/Hist-Tobacco.html
“Wouldn’t Bernard beat this ? They’ve been in business since 1733 and on their website they claim that at least Cardinal and Pariser date back to the beginning of the company.” Possibly* but was stating that while manufacturers in England might have ancient pedigrees most English snuffs available today, including the F&T range, were put into production in much more recent times and don’t have the antiquity suggested by some of the names. * I’m dubious about claims. Wilsons of Sharrow claim Best S.P as being their bestseller for than than 250 years, which would date it to 1760. While something similar might have been their bestseller for all that time the name Best S.P is new. For most of my snuff career it was called Queens.
Snuff types are old but brands new. Originally branded products were great progress, mark of traceable quality. Now things are totally different. And really wouldn’t want to consume any product made to 18th Century standards. I’m sure Sam Gawith’s Black Rappee is better than the original stuff
Please forgive my typo. What I meant to write was that Garrett’s trademark was issued in 1870 (not 1780). Garrett snuff was first manufactured in 1726. Was it anything like 20th century Garrett snuff? Who the hell knows! It is interesting that most seem to assume that older is equated with “better,” which may or may not be true. That may very well be the case for certain snuffs, but perhaps some are better today than they were in 1950 or 1875. Maybe Fribourg & Treyer was better. I find today’s version (I’ve never had an older tin) to be too highly perfumed and far too lingering – and not in a good way. Maybe this is how they have always been, or maybe the ones in, say, 1960 were more subtle. Then again, perhaps they weren’t.
@ bob When you said Rose Attar was expensive I just had to look it up. 1oz costs over $200! That is insane I can only imagine what Macouba smelled like back in the hay day of F&T. @ Juxtaposer I agree whole heartedly that this should be suggested. How great would it be to get a small batch of an original recipe snuff from the regency days. Wilson’s could call it Fribourg & Treyer “Regency”. I imagine most of the members on this site would want to buy at least 10grams of a historical snuff even if it cost $20. I know I would!
“Original recipe” does not necessarily equate to “original quality.” If much higher grade perfumes and essential oils were indeed used in the past, I’m somewhat skeptical that Wilsons or anyone else is going to go out of their way to obtain these exact components – if indeed they are even obtainable today. I bet no one even knows who the old suppliers were. (And I’m sure it varied over the decades anyway.)
I seriously doubt that Fribourg & Treyer or any other snuff maker used the highest grade rose attar at any time during their history.
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I know that the geranium they claim to have used is pretty god damn high end. The rose attar they claimed to use is also pretty damn high end as well. A good rose attar is completely divine one of the few scents I can’t imagine hardly anyone not loving. I imagine that the old snuffs where more heavily perfumed as life was much stinkier in the cities if you think New Orleans or New York have a solid funk at least people didn’t dump their chamber pots into the street. I know that when I have had jobs that involve really terrible smells the more heavily perfumed snuffs become all that much better. @kjoerup I do doubt they used the highest grade rose attar. Find their old discriptions to get a good idea of what quality they where talking about. I know that an old school Macouba kill the new one in amazingness and gourmetaity.
They were the snuff suppliers to the aristocracy, the perfumes they used in their snuffs were more than likely Grade A. But let us not argue about the quality of the perfumes and get down to the prospect of getting an “old school” F&T produced haha! Wilson’s, we want one!
I think you’d be better off asking Roderick to make a line of pricey vintage-style Grade A snuffs. I’d trust him to be more attentive to details (like not cutting costs and corners on top essential oils and the like), and I know he would do an all-around better job of it than Wilsons of Sharrow could.
I really love F&T snuffs because it makes me feel like I’m using a very special, old time snuff. But, it’s like driving a Jaguar made in India. Not the same anymore. It’s still got the name and the same packaging but the true character is lacking.
Well maybe this will cheer you up. According to snuffstore.co.uk they say that Macouba snuff by F&T “is still perfumed with pure Bulgarian attar of roses as it was one hundred and fifty years ago.”
I don’t believe it. Doesn’t smell like an attar to me. More smells like the best imitation of come across (actualy it reminds me a lot of what f&T french carrote and rose of sharrow 50 smell like. Maybe the other scents decieve me a bit.
I’ve never had to pleasure to smell pure rose attar so I couldn’t tell you ha. In fact, I’ve never smelled any of the smells found in F&T snuffs on their own; that includes Musk, Tonqin, Geranium Bourbon, ect
I doubt there is very much original FandT around anymore and as already mentioned the lack of a health warning is not in itself a guarentee. I have some very old FandT that purely from the state of the tins I suspect to be pre-WoS - I can’t detect any difference from the modern versions, aside from some obvious ageing.
I don’t smell the rose attar in Macouba either. Oh, they may very well be adding a drop to every twenty kilograms of snuff, but they most certainly are not using it in any truly detectable amount. Also, there are some Bulgarian attars that are of very dubious quality. There are also some world class Bulgarian attars, but it wouldn’t make sense to use them in snuff – and the price of Fribourg & Treyer indicates that these top attars are not an ingredient. I’m not saying that Wilsons of Sharrow is using cheap adulterated attars, but I suppose anything is possible. Rose attar is quite potent, and a little goes a long way. That is something to consider when contemplating the price of attar.
True. I’ve read of snuff reciepes that go drop of oil to pound of snuff. Unfortunatly I don’t rememeber what oil it was. Then again my macouba still reaks of ammonia. First snuff I’ve enjoyed that smell with (probably just further proof of my weirdness), however that probably disqualifies it as being the best state to disect the ingredients out of.
I have a very old sampler tin of the Seville, pre-Wilson’s. It is different than the current Seville, not as pungent, but it is also a different base tobacco. It came literally packed in a 10 dram tin, with the phone number, no health warning, etc. It makes me wonder how much original is out there, stashed in some passed away grand dad’s drawer.
I have never tried any FT vintage but I love the Wilson modern take on the old recipes, they have managed to keep the FT range very distinct from their own label. I find FT in general to be very easy on the nose and great as a base to mix with anything else. Beautiful stuff…
The 1974 F&T price list contains 31 snuffs of which the following are no longer made: Verbena Comore Mitcham Mint Asthoroth Jasmin Shalimar 1970 Etrenne Masulipatam Dieppe these all at £5 per lb.; and: F&T Menthol S.P. Special at £4.75 per lb.; and: Light Dutch Black Rappee Brown Rappee S.P. at £4.25 per lb. The most expensive snuff on their 1974 list was Santo Domingo at £8.50 per lb; nothing else was priced that high. Back in the day, Etrenne was a key snuff; if there was one I would suggest adding to the current F&T range it would be that. By the way, they also made soup. Treyer’s Portable Soup was one of their top-selling products in the early 20th century. Going further back, the early 19th century F&T snuff lists already include: Paris Domingo Seville Morocco Morlaix Macouba French Carotte Bureau Etrenne Masulipatam as well as the following intriguing snuffs: Frankfort Longueville Scholten Curaçao Spanish Bran Tabac de Rouen St.Vincent Mannheim Strasbourg Marina French Prize Rapé de Lyon Buenos Ayres Façon de Paris …all of which appear in original ledgers from the early 1800s; q.v. George Evans: An Old Snuff-House Fribourg and Treyer 1720-1920, London n.d. This book also says that the heavily perfumed varieties (Macouba, Masulipatam etc). were intended as mixers at the rate of a quarter or half-ounce per pound of unflavoured snuff.