On www.cancer.org I found this article http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED\\_10\\_13X\\_Quitting\\_Smokeless\\_Tobacco.asp I was particularly offended by the below statement: “There is no sound evidence that smokeless tobacco products can actually help smokers quit. Because these products contain tobacco, they are not required to be tested to be sure they meet Food and Drug Administration (FDA) standards. This is not the case with proven treatments for tobacco addiction, such as nicotine replacement products, antidepressants, nicotine receptor blockers, and behavioral therapies. These standard treatments have been tested at length and proven to be effective ways to help people quit smoking.” It doesn’t take a Ph.D in Philosophy to figure out that this is the usual propaganda for the chemical nicotine alternatives industry! There is no evidence whatsoever that their chemical products are more “proven”, than snuff, as being effective in helping people quit smoking, and I personally know several people who having quit smoking using chemical alternatives, still missed tobacco, and never got rid of the urge for tobacco, and consequently relapsed into smoking. Even after years using chemical alternatives. A survey from Sweden (can’t find the link now!) shows that almost no ex-smokers having switched to snus, relapse into smoking again. I would definitely contest the cancer.org postulate - I see a cold, greedy business wanting to shove their disgusting chemical alternatives down our throats, having absolutely no problems with not telling the truth about smokeless tobacco!!

I agree. I hardly know anyone who has quit smoking with the chemicals. Or for that matter the anti-depressants. Many tobacco researchers who don’t work for some company that is a major pharm or tobacco company almost always recomend smokeless tobacco as being a hell of a lot safer then smoking.

I think snuffster explained it beautifully in another thread. There’s not only the nicotine replacement aspect, which the chemicals may address, but also the things smokers do like handling the cigarettes etc. as part of the habit. They have to learn to use snuff and get the same enjoyment fiddling with the tins, taking a pinch, etc. I didn’t smoke cigarrettes but I do enjoy fiddling with snuff tins.

I actually had some success with NRT’s about 11 years ago. I had promised myself to quit at 30 and was able to do so with the help of mega dosing nicorette gum and use of The Patch. It took about 5x the recommended dosage of gum and use of The Patch in conjunction at first. I didn’t smoke for 7 years but never was able to quit the gum. At about double what smoking costs, I can see why they’re pushing these products, that I might add offer very little if any pleasure. In the end, I just couldn’t condone continuing to pay that sort of money. If anything my nicotine addiction had increased using these products. Funny how the doctor advised me that mega dosing nicotine is OK at first; “anythings better than smoking”. Then these people will point to snuff and snus and say the nicotine is a danger after all (but not their nicotine?). These products are just way too expensive to be taken seriously by most people anyways.

I’ve found that tobacco actually makes me less depressed. I can’t remember where, but I remember reading about research that indicated nicotine had significant anti-depressant effects. I’m pretty sure it improves my memory as well.

Yes! The better question is…Snuff instead of antidepressants? I use both so I can’t say but I digress tobacco is a VERY useful mood enhancer.

Snus and dip are completely different in nicotine delivery! In fact very different in their entirety.

snus seems to take longer last longer and to me seems slightly stronger. As far as nico levels and absorbtion it reminds me of what it would be like to smoke a genticly modified extra nicotine pipe tobacco. (no idea if that makes sense to you, I know it does to someone)

Hmm, I’ve yet to find a snus comparable in nicotine as Cope snuff and I’ve tried em all except the new XX 15mg’ers. I would say Skruf is fairly close, but Cope just gives me the best of any oral tobacco, plug included. Curiously, none of the other Copes seem very strong either, just the original, I would guess it’s the same tobacco. :?

O.k. Here is my opinion as a snus user who has only tried dip a few times. Comparing snus to dip. Snus is slower in nic delivery. Being put in the upper lip it does not mix with as much saliva. Therefore It does not create a spit to be extricated. So surface exposure in the mouth is somewhat less. Also the processing of the snus plus the additives make for a more alkaline product which in fact be eaten. Making for spitting unnecessary. Ounce for ounce the same nic can be derived. However the finer cut of the snus plus gravity will cause a “falling” when a certain viscosity is reached. This falling of the pinch causing mud mouth will usually end the session of use. Methods used in prolonging the fall such as “baking” styles or limiting toying, sucking,and movement including talking do add longevity to the pinch. Another trick is to keep the mouth open to allow for a drying air flow to keep the integrity of the pris (baked pinch). In contrast dip can be sucked dry and left in or let sit at a controlled moisture level. As for flavors it seems the differences are a salty, spicy, bitter sweet, fruit, herbal tobacco to a sweet, syrupy, minty, sugary tobacco. Snus is a fresh product needing controlled cool temperatures to stay fresh as well.

Thanks guys for the inputs - I don’t use anti-depressives, and to be honest am a little shocked that such drugs would be prescribed for quitting smoking! That’s certainly not the policy here in my country - but perhaps there is some sense to it - if one’s smoking is stress-related? I think it’s a little scary how many people are on mood-altering drugs in our days. The figures provided by Roderick on the percentages of who quits how are very very interesting indeed!! Shows exactly what I was thinking - that the chemical alternatives (read: nicotine gum/patches) don’t work!

Im that rare thing - a UK dip and chew user, Oral tobacco is definately stronger but less convenient, I think that in itself would help to make the respective sucess rates fairly equal. Standard NRT, IMHO, doesn’t work because it only replaces nicotine and there is a lot more to being addicted to cigarettes than the nicotine; ritual, enjoyment, flavour and also, to a greater or lesser extent, the paraphanalia and luxury element. Snuff can give all of those things. Standard NRT didn’t touch my smoking habit, but I kicked it with snuff in a few weeks for the most part, thanks to Toque.

As I’ve said before I didn’t even really try to stop smoking cigarettes it just happened that I really found myself not enjoying them and wanting snus or snuff.

I too just did not want cigarettes any more and quit buying them so I’m not even tempted. I had gotten down to 1/2 of one in the morning and the rest before bed. One day I realized I had not had one in a few days and I said why bother even buying them. I used the patches and gum they were hell as far as i’m concerned. As for the antidepressants the one they gave me, zyban, was a level of hell I have never experienced from a mood altering substance. I would not ever voluntarily take an antidepressant again. My advice is DON’T TAKE THEM THEY WILL MESS YOU UP!!!

I did not know this at the time but most SRIs have PCP or a derivative of it as the base. If I had known that I never would have taken it.

I find it strange that people will self medicate with drugs and alcohol yet deny themselves medication that is actually prescribed for them.

In Danmark it’s becoming increasingly difficult to obtain prescriptions for anti-depressants, unless you are in some therapeutic treatment. There are definitely cases, in which AD meds are necessary for certain people to function properly, but the over-medication for any little obstacle met with in life, is not a healthy option. Mourning, as well as various set-backs in life, are not necessarily all a pathological state! Some say that allowing yourself the whole range of emotions in life, is actually more healthy than trying to avoid these. I believe this to be true. Of course with the exception of those who actually suffer from a psychological disorder.

Why is sekf-medication a bad thing? In my opinion because of various insidious reason, such as who does it and who makes the most money. As b.b.1 said prescription anti-depressants are not the excate science they are painted out to be. It isn’t like people can’t do research on what they put into their bodies (hell snuff is my main self-medication). The main stated arguement seems to be that some how magicaly some substances are good because their passed by a machine while others aren’t. The one thing they seem to often forget is that drugs aren’t really drugs without people who all have varied diffrent chemistries which makes a huge diffrence (ever notice some people don’t get hooked on nicotine while others get really hooked), I’ve seen people do well on drugs that many people don’t do well on (both legal and illegal) and vice versa I know people who should not touch coffee and really have super negative effects from them. I guess I’am saying I would have more respect for the prescription meds if they where not treated in such a careless and lazy selfish manner and that the main diffrence between them and many illegal substances really comes down to the barrier of medical prescription which if it isn’t respected and treated properly makes it as much not good as self-medication since the one real seperation doesn’t exsist except in concept anyways.

As a long time sufferer of psychotic depression, I think I can offer a view on this. In the past i used to self medicate with alchohol, and in the short term it worked, it made me feel better and kept the psychosis at bay. In the long term it did me liver damage and made me worse, making me lapse into some really horrific psychotic episodes which included a few suicide attempts. By the same token as I was self medicating this made the anti depressents I was on work less and made me feel worse. After a time though they stop working anyway and your are back to square one. In the last 2 months I have been taking Mirtazapine which really has helped a hell of a lot better than previous drugs and alcohol ever did. Who knows how long this will last for and will it mean an end to my illness? Hopefully so. I also think alternatives for anti depressants should be given. How close is a doctor to a drug dealer? God knows but they aren’t far off . The speed which they prescribe those things is amazing they think the answer is in a pill and it isn’t at all. The answer is in talking through your illness and finding help to cope with the symptoms in a different way to drugs. In the end people who suffer from depression should be given all the possible treatments rather than relying on drugs which only work in the short term, make you self medicate more and generally change your whole persona. Have they changed me? Yes in the last two months, they have made me feel as good as I have felt in 8 years, how long this will last though is anybodys guess. In the past different drugs have made me feel worse and I’ve ended up back at the beginning. These drugs shouldn’t be prescribed willy nilly, but only when there is no other option. They should also make them non addictive as I’ve reached a point where I don’t think I could function without them anymore. Are they a neccessary evil or are they just snake oil potion? I guess thats a matter of opinion, but one point I must emphasise is that these mind altering drugs shouldn’t be prescribed as the only solution. Stefan

Self medication is vital to our survival. An unbiased point of view is helpful in that respect. If we can take the time to acknowledge the research done we will be more successful. With this knowledge we can also direct our doctors towards our preferred controlled substances. The advise of doctors is invaluable and generally not unreasonable. After all it was the doctors who were the prime advocates of snuff in the day. As for antidepressants, there are introductory and withdrawal periods that these types of medicines have. If you skip a dose you may also enter into this phase where your symptoms are actually aggravated. That’s why there is a hesitation to prescribe antidepressants to those with suicidal thoughts. Thanks for the responses! This is a cool place to organize thoughts.

Self medication can be a great thing, but people always tend to think of it (and do it) as self medicating with dangerous substances. Using alcohol. weed or stuff on that level is not the only form of SM. You can SM with herbal remedies like St John’s wort (the first option for many German doctors according to some sources I’ve read) or with diet - oily fish, fruit, vegetables and a generally whole-food, e number free diet. The English actor Stephen Fry is bi-polar and did a series on mental illness. One of the people featured was a young woman who on the face of it had everything going for her. She was one of the brightest students at an eminent school and after graduation commenced a glittering career, until it all fell apart with mental illness and she was confined in a psych. ward. She is now back in practice and has not had a serious episode in years which she puts wholly down to SM, but with diet - wholefood and oily fish. There are some people for whom medication is a life saver in the literal sense and some for whom it just enables them to live a life (and I have experience of that too) but self medication can be a whole different ball game than dosing up with Jack (yep, done that too)

So if diet counts as self-medication killing my neighbors speakers would that count as self surgery??? I agree diet and other factors are often overlooked. reducing my junk food intake really helps me be a more even person keeps me from getting in fights (O.k. more keeps me from scaring people away from fighting with me)

Hi Bob, its all about taking control of your life in a positive way, I think. Mind you, easier said than done and whos to say what is positive?

excatly. What works for me might not work for you. There are many ways to do anything. Plus my question is always how is that working out for you.

I feel generally better for cutting back on the booze. I don’t eat enough junk food for it to matter to me and I eat a fair amount of fruit, but I certainly used to drink too much, and mixed it as well. Now I will begin and end the evening on the same drink and for the most part I stick to wine these days.

Snuffster> I too never drink hard alcohol, but really enjoy a good glass of wine. Everything in sensible amounts, as I’m not getting younger.

I believe there’s no better piece of lifestyle advice than do things in moderation, because your body can cope with pretty much everything in moderation - although I don’t think I thought that way in my 20’s.

Being objective, if you add something to the body that the body has not evolved to accomodate, there is likely to be some degree of risk - or at least plenty of unknowns - but the thing that does it for me is that snuff has been used for an awful long time, apparently with no one the worse for using it. Subjectively, it just does not feel like a bad thing. I have to say as well that I just don’t care if there is a slight risk - having kicked smoking I am more than happy to take my chances with snuff.

Yeah, what he said…and don’t drink too much water either!

Juxta - nah - fish pee in it :o)))

I know this a very old thread, but if anyone is looking… I just read a 2006 article in a medical journal that said pharma companies are trying to formulate a non addictive molecule of nicotine, because it appears to be an anti depressant, or have qualities similar. I know as a snuff taker, taking a pinch, waiting for the n. to enter my brain, then feeling good, no matter what my mood is, always seems to make me feel better. I haven’t been diagnosed with clinical depression, but like everyone, I get down at times, and everything looks hopeless in life. Somehow, nicotine does make me feel better. I don’t know if because I’ve smoked or snuffed since I was 15, and I am currently 60, an old man, but snuff and the nicotine it contains makes me feel better.

Very very true @mrmanos, when I feel down and mopey for no good reason snuff alone is often enough to bring me out of it (of course if there’s an actual reason to be down it’d be different). I like how with snuff you have the nicotine component plus the psychological effects of the scents themselves; it’s hard to feel stressed when I’m smelling something lovely. At the same time I think part of the reason I get down and mopey in the first place is if I haven’t had any tobacco in a while. Sometimes I’ll notice myself becoming very cloudy-headed and upset and then remember I haven’t had any snuff in a few hours. It’s a great feeling of relief to let yourself enter a bit of nic withdrawal and then blast yourself out of it. Remarkable to feel your own brain tightening itself up and going from irrational to rational in the space of a few seconds. I’m a confirmed neurotic though so I probably am more sensitive to this sort of thing than the average joe haha.

@horus92Yes, the w/ds. Every morning I have a cup of coffee and take whatever snuff I feel like, these days menthols…I have a bunch… then, miraculously, I start to feel better, until I think about work… gotta have more snuff, then more coffee, on and on. Yeah, I l can relate to the brain tightening! Its like my focus becomes sharper and things make more sense. Strange, but true. I’ll stop short of comparing it to a “real” drug", lest I feel the need to go to a Narcotic Anonymous meeting. " Hi, my name is Jonathan and I’m an addict… a SNUFF addict" I can see the reactions right now!

We all have a need to be well. Let’s be snuff well. C’mon that’s got to be worth a million votes. Lets see the most votes here ever. Blow the computer up!!! Zero so far, yeahhhhh. I’m alone, a pioneer!