Once again, Philips, thanks for this information. We agree then that '‘Plain’ Spanish can have come early with bergamot and perhaps citrus. If so It would have certainly been treated in this way before it came to these shores and its recipe would have been known, of course to the Spanish, and not necessarily to the English merchants. It was certainly much appreciated, but, would the bergamot have been recognised for what it was, in those early days? Perhaps people supposed that it was an intrinsic characteristic of the excellent plain Spanish tobacco. It was, perhaps, also considered Plain in comparison with other early sorts such as the ‘Italian’, which the OED mentions in the same breath. This, as I guess, would have been a much more highly scented variety. Can it really be that when we enjoy the quintessentially English SP, we are snuffing the closest thing we have to the ancient Spanish Plain. What a shocking thought!
OT - I’d recommend the entries in the OED as an excellent primer to any general reading around snuff. There are as usual many quotations and threads to follow. It’s not perfect, but it is the best there is. Have you room in house for the thirty odd large volumes? Is the two volume micro-print edition still available? Those who hanker after historical references to snuff in literature will be well on your way. One last. Snuff-Mundungus/ dungo/etc gets several mentions. Mundungus is defined as Tripe, Black Pudding, Offal, Refuse. As I see it a noisome black snuff, perhaps of the poorest quality (and possibly the highest strength). I believe it likely that at one time you could walk into a suitably down-market snuff shop and ask for a quarter ounce of Mundungus. Now, I dare any of you, excellent producers, and purveyers of the good stuff to produce a true Mundungus for us. I’d give it a go! Can I see a Toque Mundungus approaching?
They want money for that.
"Can it really be that when we enjoy the quintessentially English SP, we are snuffing the closest thing we have to the ancient Spanish Plain. What a shocking thought! " Who knows for sure? However, whatever S.P or SP stands for it should have the following characteristics: Colour - light or golden brown only Mill - no coarser than demigros Moisture - medium dry Flavour - the pungency derives from unscented tobacco. It may, however, be complemented by hints of the Citrus of Bergamia and lavender. That, for what it’s worth, is my view.
Finding definite proof that SP is Spanish (or anything else) is like looking for corn in Egypt in the lean years. Many brave souls have previously undertaken the mighty task and returned defeated. The more stubborn have condemned themselves, like the Flying Dutchman, to sail the wild and wasteful ocean for eternity without ever making port. Many have gone mad in the process and suicide is common. Nevertheless, I’m going to subscribe to the OED in one last forlorn hope.
Good luck!
The OED is the ultimate browsing delight. I’ll stick with the fact that the early (and somewhat later) existence of a Plain Spanish is highly suggestive of the later SP (Spanish Plain). Though those of us who have tracked etymologies for pleasure on occassion are too familiar with the twists and turns, dead ends and sudden insights this particular pass-time delivers. Something like knowledge is gained, but little or perhaps nothing in the way of certainty. Toque - you are missing your opportunity. I see an SG Mundungo on on the horizon. What better way of using up the bits that are just not fit for finer useage?
Sp is short for ‘Spanish’? ‘Spanish Prize?’ Don’t be silly, it stands for ‘Superlative Powder’ :o)
My heart is with you, - my head says ‘No’
So I skimmed through most of this conversation (as the last time I had read this thread 85 new posts have been posted) I wonder (and this is just me thinking, feel free to disagree or prove me wrong) If SP stands for Spanish Port? Meaning that I’m sure Spain was trading with a wide variety of countries, and so I wonder if they didn’t brand the barrels of snuff as to the destination of the snuff, that being a Spanish sea port. I also wonder if people back then thought that bergamot and lemon would keep the snuff fresher on a long sea voyage, and perhaps that’s why it has those flavors in it, not to scent it by any means, but as a way to preserve the snuff. If this was the case then by all means the snuff should be considered plain because the scents are only that of preserving the snuff for transportation and not necessarily for consumption.
@ourlastdefeat I disagree with your “skimming” through most of this conversation.
To what extent Juxtaposer? I know that for the most part in the discussion most people decided on Spanish Plain, and interjected the possibility that it was originally possibly named for Plain Spanish but the abbreviation posed a problem so they switched the words around to give the abbreviation of SP. The parts that I skimmed were the kind of long historical quotes from different sources and some of the responses to those posts, and some of the shorter responses I just skipped altogether.
The extent of my disagreement relates directly to the hours of research that some of us including myself have spent on this subject. I really should have put in a smiley face or an lol but I try not to use that language. Can you see the humor in my previous comment now?
Haha, yes I can, I thought it might have been a joke but I wanted to make sure. Also I applaud your efforts to not dumb down the English language I wish more people on the internet in general would do that at well but it is what is I suppose. At any rate I wanted to ask is there any factual evidence for my hypothesis about bergamot and lemon being used as a type of preservative for the transportation, and not necessarily for the consumption, of the snuff?
I can find no evidence of bergamot being used as a preservative for anything. What a did find is it being used as a thickener. Specifically a plot thickener, as in “the plot thickens”. What I found was the calling of the bergamot fruit a pear. P as in pear you see. Sharrow Pear hahahaha ludicrous you say? I tend to agree. I’m loosing sleep over this I’ll admit.
An argument against S.P. having to do with Spanish would be the Sheffield mills manufacturing of snuff. Spanish snuff was manufactured in Spain. If snuff was manufactured in Sheffield why would it be labeled Spanish?
For the same reason we call them French Fries? lol
Because they began quite naturally to produce their own version, or ‘take’ on the original and authentic Plain Spanish, perhaps, and this came to be called Spanish Plain (for the reason suggested, that is that PS was already taken, and as Philips points out it would be ludicrous on pots, and perhaps for also for other colloquial liguistic reasons (we have Spanish Leather, Spanish Fly, various other ‘Spanish things’, some better not mentioned)why not Spanish Plain, abbreviated naturally to SP? (The question mark here denotes ‘mere conjecture’.) ‘Spanish Plain’ is an excellent pedigree name for a snuff made from Havana leaf flavoured with bergamot, and produced as a normal SP, if there is such a thing. Who will snap it up? Toque - this might prove more popular than Mundungus! Would it cost a bomb?
Sorry, that fine snuff would be called Plain Spanish. Not Spanish Plain. I’m getting confused. I suppose it would be costly since anything that grows in Cuba is turned into a cigar, and these are pricey items. A suitably understated name for the costliest snuff around. Very ‘easy’ on the bergamot though, just a hint perhaps. I don’t think people from the US would be allowed to sample it though, unless things have changed. Havana SP.
“An argument against S.P. having to do with Spanish would be the Sheffield mills manufacturing of snuff.” Anyone taking snuff in the 1960s and before would remember that most Sharrow snuffs were labelled S.X. My earliest list shows: S.P S.S S.W (Sharrow Wallflower S.M (Sharrow Medicated) S.C (Sharrow Carnation) S.J (Sharrow Jockey Club) S.L (Sharrow Lavender) S.T (Sharrow Tonquin) I tentatively suggested before that S could stand for Sharrow (as in Sharrow Wallflower), and that the qualifiers for S.P and S.S have been lost. There are a number of arguments against this hypothesis. 1. There have been many hundreds of snuff mills and snuff chandlers over the centuries We only have scanty records for the very few mills that have survived and therefore tend to associate the etymology of S.P with those survivors. 2. Even Mark Chaytor, the greatest expert on snuff manufacture in Sheffield in general and Sharrow in particular, doesn’t know the origin of S.P for sure (which isn’t reassuring for amateur sleuths). 3. The Sales & Pollard case proves that S.P cannot be associated with any manufacturer in particular. “Spanish snuff was manufactured in Spain. If snuff was manufactured in Sheffield why would it be labeled Spanish? “ A good point. The answer is found in ‘The Dictionary of Traded Goods and Commodities : 1550-1820’ The text explains that: “Snuffs were available in the shops in great variety, many types apparently denoting a town or country of origin, like BARCELONA SNUFF, HAVANA SNUFF, PORTUGAL SNUFF, SCOTCH SNUFF and SPANISH SNUFF, though most of these during the eighteenth century came to denote a type rather than a place of origin. Others, like BERGAMOT SNUFF and ORANGERY SNUFF indicated a principal flavouring or perfume.” http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=58876#s6 Another question concerns the use of a period in the appellation. S.P suggests two words whereas SP is more likely to be just one. The earliest references I’ve seen are all S.P. Sharrow have only fairly recently started using SP and other manufacturers still use S.P. This supports the conjecture that S.P refers to two words and was possibly used after manufacture of Spanish style snuff commenced in Britain using leaf tobacco imported from her own American colonies in imitation.