No, I’m not trying to turbo charge commercial snuff in an attempt to get the ultimate nicotine buzz! If I buy some whole tobacco leaf to make into snuff, should I add alkaline ingredients to the basic flour? I’ve heard baking soda can be used, but from what I gather, commercial manufacturers use other compounds. Can someone give me a brief alkalizing 101?

Deleted post since I obviously don’t know what I’m talking about!

@ doctorbead: To alkalise tobacco you can use products like potash and salmiak. The amounts differ, 1% to 3% is used in different proportions. Disolve these products in water, about 10 - 15% of the amount tobacco used. In warm surroundings the mixture will start to ferment. To stop this fermentation add about 10 - 20% kitchen salt. Good luck wih your experiments. Jaap Bes.

There you go, he should know! That is exactly what I do. Very concise. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Thanks guys, that’s exactly what I wanted to know. I happen to have some potash already (I make black powder occasionally) so that’s ideal. So does the alkalizing process bring about the fermentation then?

Wait, I just reread your post @snuffmiller- surely you don’t mean 10-20% by weight of salt? Is the fermentation a desirable thing, or is it best to stop it dead in its tracks?

Ok, now it gets complex! No keep water 10 to 15 %. Keep salt at 1/2 to 1 %. Fermentation occurs while moistened with PH solution at WARM temps. This develops complexity in the tobacco taste, and enhances nicotine uptake. The byproducts of fermentation can be undesirable TSNA’s. You want some, not too much fermentation. This is where it becomes an art form as much as a process. I grind whole leaf, using water to dissolve small amount sodium carbonate, set it aside in a warm place. Check it daily. Add small amount of salt and begin some aging at cooler temps. This makes snuff. Screw it up enough times and you begin to learn to make good snuff. Make great snuff every day and you become snuffmiller! @snuffmiller- If the 10 to 20% salt is correct then please advise! I never add that much. Do a search for snuffgrinders blogs.

@doctorbeat- Remember a lot of great snuffs are made with tobacco taken from the heart of large bales where natural fermentation has occurred with age/shipping. That is hard to duplicate with whole leaf. I would give anything to have a large amount of tobacco to select from, nothing like the center of a five hundred pound hogshead of year old tobacco. I spent a day at a storage warehouse and have never forgot watching it being sorted out.

Baleheart snuff!

@Whalen: right, got it. Why don’t you try bagging it really well and bury it in a fermenting compost heap?

@doctorbeat - very same principal, although you would not want any outside microbes from the “heap”. I think you really are on to a process, I have a huge heap around the corner that is steaming away. My luck someone would find it right away, but now you have me thinking! Brilliant idea actually, you could not ask for better conditions to ferment the raw snuff in.

Couldn’t you use an egg incubator and avoid the inherent problems (blech!) of the heap? I would think that would keep the tobacco warm but not cooking.

@whalen: well I guessed that a large bale of tobacco that was naturally fermenting would basically be a compost heap of tobacco. I’m sure it wouldn’t be too difficult to isolate the tobacco from the compost, maybe double bag it tightly and put it in a sealed mason jar? I take it the fermentation process is anaerobic? Is there any other alkalyzing agent I could use? I just found out that potash isn’t what I thought it was (potassium nitrate, I got confused with salt of potash, or saltpeter) and I am having trouble finding washing soda (sodium carbonate) Would slaked lime (calcium carbonate) work? What about the original idea of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate, or more correctly, sodium hydrogen carbonate)?

@doctorbeat - Potash should be potassium carbonate. I use sodium carbonate, washing soda, since it is an approved additive for snus also. I stay away from baking soda, since that would just be too damn easy! Actually I believe it is not the best to use. Slaked lime is pretty high PH and should be used with caution. I spent quite some time researching all of this one time and wanted Potash, settled for Sodium Carbonate. The trick is that all of these agents have different PH levels and will need to be adjusted accordingly, and slaked lime can just fry sensitive nasal tissue. So please get some further input on this other than my word, there is good reason to use the right product. I have forgotten more than I have retained, and today is not a good day for me to revisit. Sorry for that, I have some emergency work that just jumped up and bit me on the butt.

Yes, The stuff I have is potassium nitrate, most often called ‘saltpeter’ but sometimes called ‘salt of potash’, which is how I got it confused with ‘potash’. I also got calcium carbonate wrong, it’s not the same thing as slaked lime, slaked lime is sodium hydroxide. Confound these archaic names! It seems to me like you know what you’re talking about, so I’ll continue the quest for washing soda. So far I have tried three drugstores and one supermarket with no luck, but when I do manage to find some, one box will be several lifetime’s supply :o)

@doctorbeat & whalen: The 10-20% kitchensalt is used to kill the microorganisms and stop the fermentation. Making snuff is still as in the old days: experimenting with fermentation. Indeed things as humidity, temperature, pH, available nutrients (sugar, melasse syrup), available microorganisms (addition of wine lees), availability of oxygen will influence the outcome. We are now in the last phase of experimenting (nearly two years now) with “Karotten” to produce the historical St. Omer No. 1. Jaap Bes.

I bet that St. Omer No. 1 is going to be some special snuff. So just to be sure, do you mean 10%-20% dry weight of salt? As in if you had 100g of snuff, you’d add 10-20g of salt?

Normally fermentation does require oxygen however there is an anaerobic aging that pipe smokers have known about for years. I have not been able to find out any details about anaerobic aging of tobacco as of yet. None of the blenders of pipe tobacco that I know use this process. It is just something that pipe tobacco cellar enthusiasts have discovered as effective. Great thread by the way. If I may suggest @doctorbeat you may be interested in using snus recipe times and temperatures to create a Rappee like snuff (ie. SG KB). I have done so using plain Scotch snuff (Bruton) with excellent results.

A rappee is an excellent idea. I don’t know much about snus, so it didn’t occur to me to try snus recipes. Time to do some research…

Just remember that the American Scotch snuffs already have salts (alkalizers) in them.

Here is a priceless video regarding making an easy karrotten for those of you with whole tobacco leaves. An alkalizing agent as well as other casings could easily be spayed on the leaves instead of plain water. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sqhu11WjC4

Cool video, I like the idea of making a few carrotes and grating them, just like they did when snuff first came to Europe. Are the American scotches so, er, composty because they are fermented longer than English types?

Are the American scotches so, er, composty because they are fermented longer than English types? That may be an accurate conclusion, I can’t say, but there IS an obvious difference in the alkalizers used which would definitely support this theory.

Judging by the way oral tobacco is made here, it follows that prolonged fermentation might well have a lot to do with it as well.

I’m fascinated by that video. It makes me want to order leaves and have a go at it.

@doctorbeat: exactly. The people in the video need some practice! Here we do it slightly different. Attached som pictures. Jaap Bes.

@snuffmiller I wonder what knot he uses on the end to keep it from being all funky like the one in the video. Enquiring minds want to know.

@Dogwalla: The end of the cloth is fitted between the end of the double folded rope and then you start to turn and pull. I hope this is clear. If not I’ll take a picture. Jaap Bes.

I use half hitches, one to start and one on each end. I start in the middle, half hitch on end, move back across to middle then tie off. I have only done it once though lol. I did use a tension line for added tightness. I have me a nice `coyote tobacco rum cased prik and I am forced to age it because I am obligated by safety to sprout the seeds from the plant to be sure it actually IS tobacco before I use it.

I have more questions :oD Is alkalyzing common amongst British snuff manufacturers? I always thought that ammonia stink when you open a can was from the alkalyzing process, but obviously this is not true, because Toque has no additives and still has the ammonia smell. So, which snuffs are likely to be alkalysed, and which are not? What causes the ammonia? Is it brought about by fermentation under special storage conditions after the snuff is milled and flavored? Does this natural ammonia alkalyse the snuff and freebase the nicotine? Were alkaline ingredients historically added to snuff?

The ammonia is a natural byproduct of tobacco aging/fermentation. It is not an additive. And yes it does have some effect on the PH level, although how much I can not be sure of. You have to remember that raw green tobacco is unusable for all practical purposes. It has to undergo curing, which is a natural process, that can and may be augmented. This is all to develop the natural flavor of the tobacco, and yes to make it slightly higher in PH. I believe you are confused about Toque, they use natural additives for flavor, but the underlying snuff base tobacco is processed in some manner. You do know that what twisted information I have here was hard earned. There are very knowledgeable people who know the answers, but the processes for many are trade secrets. Go look at the resources on this site:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Snuff\\_Grinders\\_homemade\\_nasal\\_snuff/ Then you and I together can help each other piece it together. I have been blessed by being given some important information from knowledgeable people, and I can not give it out, and it is only a fraction of what you need to know. I have been at this for years now. It is a great deal trial and error. I for one am grateful as can be for snuffmillers input. The rappee snuff technique has me hoping for the best commercial results. Jap’s efforts to continue the art of snuff making are priceless, please buy his snuff, I do.

I’m definitely enjoying the learning process, and your help (and Jaap’s) is very much appreciated. I’m going to click the link and do some reading now, but before I do, I found a post from Roderick of Toque in which he says: “I’d be interested to hear how you get on with Toque. As you probably are aware our snuff is 100% natural with 100% natural flavours and no additives. How we raise and lower nicotine levels are by removing stalk and stem from the grind. The lower the stems the higher the nicotine level.” So apparently there are no alkalyzing agents added. I guess if the pH is raised it must be by fermentation only.

It must be noted that raising the PH, and fermentation are two separate things. Just usually done together, and this is how the base snuff flour is prepared. Flavoring and aging are the final process. I have right now ten pounds of air cured Burley tobacco with two years of barn curing. Once ground it has a distinct and not so lovely raw tobacco flavor and scent. This raw snuff flour needs to be converted, into something snuffable. I start with Washing soda (E500), water, and a warm environment to sit. (I use my spa). I use two percent soda, 15 to 30 percent water, a blender, and make a nice just damp mixture. I set it aside in a warm place to ferment until I like the results. I then add some salt (2%), and I prefer high heat to stop the fermentation. I then rehydrate to a lower total humidity, and age the snuff, it will develop ammonia during this stage. Then I flavor and continue aging. I use sealed mason jars for all phases. As for Roderick, you have to ask Roderick. Although I am sure that his snuff is slightly elevated in PH, you know salt is a natural ingredient too, right? Whatever Roderick says, I believe him, and he makes some of my all time favorite snuffs. Roderick is a gifted snuff maker. I have no idea what he means as far as raising the Nicotine levels, as far as I am concerned he never has raised them! ( private Roderick joke).

I have tried what you just described using some ground up RYO tobacco (no facilities to grow my own unfortunately) I ground it up, wetted it with sodium carbonate solution and left it somewhere warm. The tobacco as ground had that ‘raw’ taste you describe, sort of grassy or like vegetables. Well, after leaving my moist tobacco overnight, drying it, and regrinding it, I can no longer taste that raw taste, and it tastes like basic unscented snuff! This is what I was trying to get, just a basic snuff that I can add flavors to. If this marked improvement happened overnight, I can only guess at how much it will improve given weeks or months. I can’t thank you enough :o) Incidentally, I attribute the speed at which the raw flavor disappeared to the fact that I was using tobacco that has already been processed and cured.

It will be interesting what some aging will do. I like the toasting method too. It would be nice to develop a bit of bulk to have to play around with as far as flavoring, Tobacco sucks up scents and moisture unlike anything else. Don’t worry so much about TSNA’s for snuff. I must have twenty batches around here in some order of processing. Imagine what you could do with some fantastically cured and aged tobacco. Let me know where your from, if in the US, I have some interesting sources. There is a whole community of whole leaf guys. You were looking into Virginia. I grew my own Rustica last year and it is just a hardy weed. Comes around to curing and aging. My TAD problem got exponentially worse once I quit spending money on it! Seeds are free. I am absolutely swimming in tobacco sometimes around here. I love tobacco.

We need more micro-snuff mills. The world of beer has been greatly enhanced by micro-breweries, it would be nice to see it for snuff. There must be any number of people here that could produce great snuffs. In fact anyone with a reasonable palate could as snuff is amazingly easy to make.

Snuffster - I agree, it would be great to have a bunch of micro snuffs. I think the one thing that holds it back is the lack of information as how to do it properly. I for one just look and look for any information I can find. Then trial and error. I was rather interested to hear that Rustica is the base for Abraxas. I have always had a drip problem with it. I have like four hands of it behind me here in the den, I keep them for display. I just had a bump of Abraxas as we speak, Kudos. I did not grow any Rustica this year. I have about two million seeds.

I think the main stumbling block for micro mills is the PACT act :o(

Actually, now I think about it, could there be a way to do this? It’s illegal to ship snuff to end-users, but could it work like firearms? Customer buys online, and the snuff is shipped to their local tobacco dealer for face-to-face collection, dealer charges a small fee for the service. I know it sounds silly, but could it be an option? Tobacconists perhaps understandably don’t want to buy a load of snuff to have it sit on their shelves for eternity, but this way they’d just be acting as a middle man and getting paid.

I was wondering that the other day. Obviously retailers have to get their smokeless tobacco somehow, and I know there are no smokeless tobacco plants in my state. I’ll bet it only applies to consumers and not retailers/distributors. Evil thoughts fill my mind…

I don’t think it’s a bad idea, the law is ostensibly to stop children smoking, I highly doubt it would apply to businesses. I’m sure a lot of retailers would be more than happy to get, say, $5 to receive and hand over a package. I would ask my local tobacconist, but he’s an exremely rude man, who (rumor has it) only runs his store as a front to his gambling racket. Anyone know a tame tobacconist? Is it worth starting a new thread about this?

I think the licensed tobacconists are bound by a few laws (tax laws). The whole micro batch snuff deal sounds like a job for the ISTA (Remember the ISTA?). All we need is for the details to be worked out of which none of us yet has volunteered. A snuff club would be fun for a bunch of us to share our micro batch snuff there. Oh wait… this is a snuff club! On this subject I would direct you to Russ Ouellette at … http://pipesandcigars.com/fusionlab.html … what he is doing here for pipe tobacco blends is a fantastic idea and is certainly something that can be done for snuff.

@doctorbeat, your idea is workable, but the downside is most tobacco shops will only work with their distributors not directly with , say Toque, so if their distributor can’t get it they’ll tell you it’s not available. I have one local shop that said he would order whatever I wanted, as long as it was one of the 15 varieties of Wilson’s that he could get from his guy. When I told him Wilsons offered over 100 flavors he looked at me like I had just pooped on the counter. The other stumbling block is you would have to pay the local taxes and a mark up for the shops trouble, but you could still likely find a good shop to get limited options for you.

You don’t need an ISTA (an impossibility until someone invests some significant time and probably money) to share micro snuff around. Just get manufacturing. Don’t get bogged down in too much technical stuff, just get some tobacco and make snuff out of it. Create your own collective. It’s very feasible and a lot of fun. If any members want to get involved I will give you a stickie thread to blog it on. It could be one way out of the problematic availability issue. On the ISTA thing: if anyone did ever comes up with a workable way forward, and we have had several that came to nothing, I would be more than happy to listen.

As Stg. de Kralingse Snuif en Specerijen Compagnie De Ster en De Lelie is a non profit organisation we will be happy to help you with your experiments as we did with the Gingerbread Snuff. Jaap Bes.

@snuffmiller Could you tell us some more about the organisation Jaap? I know next to nothing and I’m sure others are the same.

@Snuffster: The organisation is a foundation which is run by some voluntary millers. The windmills in which we produce the snuff and grind the spices are monuments and owned by the city of Rotterdam. We started about twelve years ago from scratch and as the production of snuff in Holland declined already before the second world war and the only person (our mentor) who had seen the proces as a child is now 83 we had a lot to learn. Some of the knowledge was kindly provided by Mr. Hundhammer director of the snuff departement of Pöschl. We aquired all the permits needed to work with tobacco and the knowledge to produce snuff. Primarily we focus on historical recipes. We are sponsored by a Dutch tobacco merchand and untill it was merged with a large American spices firm, sponsored by a Dutch spices firm called Silvo. Our aim is to preserve and show the public the craft of historical snuff making and and spices grinding and as we don’t want to throw away what we produce we sell it. I hope I have given you an impression of what our organisation is about. Some more about the history you can find on our website: http://www.snuifmolens.nl/index\\_en.html Jaap Bes.

Jaap, that sounds fantastic. I’d love to see that old windmill in action. I’ve been to your country twice before, and it is beautiful. The Dutch people seem to be in touch with their history and heritage far more than most, and were overwhelmingly friendly and tolerant towards us foreigners! I’d love to go back some day.

Thank you Jaap, that sounds like a fantastic project and I hope you go from success to success.