Just read that the UK is in talks about banning tobacco for anyone born after 2009. You think it’s for cigarettes only, or is snuff included? Such a rich culture of snuff should not be touched, especially when the negative side affects are nowhere near cigarettes. What do you all think?

Keep in mind that iniciatives like this popping in Europe (all the way from the UK to Russia) go hand in hand with Big Tobacco, which invests a fortune into the tobacco-free nicotine (tfN). Tobacco has no future, and tobacco-free nic is the new real (tfN heat-not-burn and NP “snus” products (nicotine pouches) are already placed on the markets; yes, you have read it right - tobacco-free nicotine heat-not-burn stuff). The only way of forcing the masses to switch to the new tfN is depriving them of tobacco-based options by all and any possible indirect means (i. e. without actual total tobacco ban; and yes, we have already been facing its gradual implementation with all the TPDs).

One more note. Let’s not be naive - health reduction is the last actual reason for such flip, from business perspective. TfN is just way more profitable.

If it happens and you’re below the age limit just get an older friend to buy it for you.

The ban is for cigarettes from what I have read.

For our good luck snuff seems to be out of this ban, but even if it will include snuff, I bet that premium cigars will be not banned and will be around for ever. So if, knock on wood, one day snuff is banned you can simply buy a cigar and grind your own snuff.

They might ban cigarettes, pipe tobaccos, snuff and snus but premium cigars will live for ever, because its a premium product primarily targeted and used to higher classes.

Its easier to take the cigarettes from simple everyday working class men, but try to ban cigars and you will have all those higher classes millionaires against you.

Premium cigars have a distinct cultural and socioeconomic significance, and they may continue to be exempt from certain restrictions or bans due to their association with luxury, craftsmanship, and tradition. As you mentioned, the exclusive appeal of cigars to the upper echelons of society may help ensure their continued availability in such a scenario.

Regulatory decisions regarding tobacco products are influenced by a range of factors, including public health concerns, economic interests, and cultural significance. The unique status of premium cigars often sets them apart from other forms of tobacco, and their existence in a world where other tobacco products are more heavily regulated or restricted is a possibility.

Thats my theory anyways. I think cigars will be around for ever. At least thats a silver lining to all those anti-tobacco waves.

I’m not sure that’s true. They mention New Zealand and Australian tobacco laws, and then have iron fisted laws where tobacco is all but illegal there. It’s all but outlawed, tax is so oppressive that it’s basically banned. They can’t import anything and tax is like $25 for a pack of cigarettes. Snuff is outlawed in general.

If the laws are anything like new Zealand or Australia, they basically have all tfN banned as well

The point is manufactures will stop producing it in general one day if it’s outlawed for future generations, since a huge swath of potential customers are vanished, just like that.

Its only for cigarettes, not snuff. At least for now. But even if one day they ban snuff for life (which I personally dont believe we will witness anything like this ever), then you can simply make your own from cigars, which in my opinion will exist on Earth for ever.

I hope you’re right! I used to smoke many years ago and snuff really has made my health better overall and I love everything about it.

Yes, that’s a possibility, but some years off I should think. The black market will thrive, so at least it will still be available. Could be pricey though.

My advice would be for you to leave the UK. There are 195 other countries in the world and many are tobacco friendly.

I live in the US. But the UK provides the entire world with snuff, other than India. So that’s like 75% of the market gone, if they ban snuff.

Yes, that would be a terrible development. Have any of the snuff manufacturers commented on this? Has Mr. Snuff said anything? Hopefully snuff will be exempt.

If you live in the US it’s easy to
buy hands of fine tobacco online and then make your own snuff based on the English snuffs. It’s not difficult at all.

Hopefully snuff will just fly under the radar since it is such a small part of the market, like it does with the tax status. It may work the other way though, if they plan a blanket ban on tobacco in general. I think the main focus is on cigarettes, and more increasingly vapes, so things like pipe tobacco, cigars, snuff should be ok, I hope.

Nope. Snuff is included. Here is a quote:

“The following products would be in scope of the new legislation:
cigarettes
cigarette papers
hand rolled tobacco
cigars
cigarillos
pipe tobacco
waterpipe tobacco products (for example, shisha)
chewing tobacco
heated tobacco
nasal tobacco (snuff)
herbal smoking products”

Source: Creating a smokefree generation and tackling youth vaping: your views - GOV.UK.

Great find. I noticed there are a bunch of survey questions on that page, but I don’t see any way to answer them. I would take the survey to convey being against this proposal.

Here you go: SurveyOptic - Department of Health and Social Care.

Yes, just done mine (not that it’ll have much impact).

Banning cigarette papers is going to piss off a lot of pot heads!

I hope this proposal will not go further.

Lots of couriers have updated their T&Cs to prohibit domestic customers sending tobacco and nicotine products, even within UK mainland.

Yes, this legislative proposal would ban the sale of all tobacco products including snuff to anyone born in 2009 or thereafter for health reasons. The paper is full of well-worn statistics regarding the dangers of smoking cigarettes but not an iota of information regarding the ‘danger’ of taking snuff. By lumping all tobacco products together it appears that the proposal is less about cessation of smoking than cessation of any form of nicotine addiction whether or not it is injurious to health. Yet the premises for the conclusion are all based on health and mortality statistics alone and not on nicotine addiction. It commits the fallacy of referencing the whole (tobacco) by an enumeration of a part (cigarettes).
Doubtless if this proposal comes up for legislation there will be the usual story of the farmer and his ear and charred aloe stems but any hard evidence that snuff takers have higher mortality rates, take more time off work due to snuff related diseases or are more of a burden on the NHS than the saintly nicotine-free paradigms of virtue like Rishi Sunak won’t be forthcoming. Still, that lack of evidence wouldn’t count for much amongst the dim-wits who sit in Parliament any more than the fallacy of pars pro toto.

(Hush now - keep this to yourselves but for anyone born on or after 2009 I’d be happy to supply you with unlimited snuff, cigars, cigarettes, pipe tobacco and cigarette papers at black market prices. Just drop me a private message and I’ll be happy to negotiate.)

Regarding buying for others, the point is there will come a point where there will be nothing to buy, as only a small section of the population will be able to purchase and so companies will not make enough sales to stay in business and so will go out of business.

I wonder when the loss of UK tax revenues (rumoured to be in the order of £10 billion for 2022/23) will be addressed.

That’s correct – ten billion quid.

UK tobacco duty tax receipts 2023 | Statista.

I can’t find precise figures offhand but it is estimated that smoking cost the NHS in England £2.6 billion per year and over £1.19 billion to local authorities from smoking-related social care needs. £500 million is the cost in Scotland, £302 million in Wales and £164 million in N. Ireland – a total of around £4.774 billion. Add on another £500 million for smoking-related social care needs outside England and smoking costs around £5.27 billion in medical care.

£10 billion - £5.27 billion = £4.73 billion lost to the treasury as a very rough and ready estimate. How is that shortfall to be made up?

In addition: if an estimated 80,000 lives are saved per annum then that means greater longevity and a higher cost in state pensions already at £112.5 billion in 2022/23 not to mention the fact that older people, especially the 70-74 group, are more of a costly burden on health services.

However, my biggest criticism is a simple one: Everyone has to die at some time whether of smoking related diseases or not and terminal diseases all require medical care that costs money. It catches up with everyone in time whether smokers or not so the health and cost benefits of not smoking are only delayed. That obvious fact of life and death seems lost on the authors of this ill-considered paper.

Yeah I wonder how they even get these figures and your last point is correct. And let’s say the figures are true, that is likely from smoking, not snuffing or snusing. Wish they’d stop lumping those two with smoking and regular “dipping” like American dipping tobacco where you spit. Not the pasteurized Swedish snus.

An outstanding post. You are so perceptive. Interested in standing for PM? I’d vote for you.

I looked into this a bit more, Graeme.
In the UK dementia and Alzheimer’s disease was the leading cause of death for all persons and for females in 2022. According to the NHS the total cost of this condition in the UK is already £26.3 billion - a far greater cost to services than smoking related diseases and there is no revenue generated. Yet despite the dementia cost to services expected to triple by 2040 this tobacco proposal fondly imagines that if the UK becomes a nicotine-free society then everyone will live happily ever after, which is true of all Fairy Stories including this one.

BTW – I was trying to find your report, published, I believe in Tobacco some twenty years ago, on how you exchanged your Georgian silver snuffbox for a snuff bullet for a week. Is it still available anywhere?

Most interesting. Thanks!

New Zealand has scrapped its controversial move to prohibit the sale of tobacco to anyone born on/after 2009. This was the same model the UK adopted for legislation. The reasons why NZ scrapped the scheme (which may be found on the internet) are also applicable to the UK and, at the very least, must give the government pause for thought.

That’s great news, hopefully other Commonwealth states follow suit and drop their ridiculous laws. Most importantly England…since they are the country with the majority of the remaining snuff makers/brands.

Black market will be booming for sure probably very low quality tobacco that will prove to be more harmful

As of today’s Kings speech from the new Uk goverment they mean all tobacco prducts and vaping

I’ve only seen reference to smoking, where tobacco is concerned. I could look for a transcript of his speech, but feel sleepy enough already

From Gov.UK

The Tobacco and Vapes Bill will:

1. Create the first ever smokefree generation by:

   making it an offence to sell tobacco products to those born on or after 1 January 2009, thereby phasing out the sale of tobacco products, while not stopping anyone who currently legally smokes from being able to do so. This will mean anyone who turns 15 or younger in 2024 will never legally be sold tobacco products
   amending existing legislation to make it an offence for anyone over 18 to purchase tobacco products on behalf of those born on or after 1 January 2009 (proxy purchasing)
   supporting the enforcement of the new measures by requiring retailers to update the current age of sale notices (or warning statements) to read: ‘It is illegal to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009’

2. Reduce the appeal and availability of vaping products by:

   providing powers for ministers to regulate:
   the flavours and contents of vaping products
   the packaging and product presentation of vaping products
   point of sale displays of vaping products
   making it an offence to sell non-nicotine vaping products to someone who is under 18 in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland already has this in place
   introducing a ban on the free distribution of vaping products to under 18s in England and Wales, and provide Northern Ireland with a power to also introduce a ban. Scotland already has these powers
   providing ministers with powers to extend the measures outlined above for vaping products to other nicotine products such as nicotine pouches