Hi, Just curious since we have an international group of members here, if anyone is familiar with Radionics? I read it’s fairly well recieved in the UK, and Germany. I have read bits online, and I do believe in subtle energies, and the premise of it all. I recently bought 2 machines to experiment with, they haven’t arrived yet. I am pretty excited to see what I can do with them, as there are many areas in my life, physical, and mental, that I’d like to work on.

I have no idea what radionics means, but I used to deal with a company with radionics in ti’s name. They had some kind of government contract and the man I dealt with carried a model 1911 45 pistol.

Like most things pseudoscience, the results are tainted by the observers in most cases and the merit of it to the patient are more based on psychosomatic effects. Ken

From what I have read, the people who have actually experimented with this, claim to have real results. The people critical of it, have never even tried it. I don’t want this thread to be a debate, by people who have never given it a real open minded trial, as that leads to nowhere. I have 2 machines on their way to me, and I am open minded, and will give it an honest effort, utilizing it the best I gather, for specific things I want to affect. I’ll report back when this occurs. I was curious if anyone had any actual experience with it themselves.

I will be happy to read a research paper on it where the scientific method was applied to it. Ken

Hi tom yes i have built a radionics machine about 10 years ago. As to do they work or not i’m not sure. Maybe they do but it’s like this if you heard a voice in your head would you broadcast it? People would think you were mad. That gives you the upper hand as no one really believes in it. Good luck hope you find what you are looking for.

Thanks pfaber. It seems so many things can be done with these, and so many different models for different purposes. The basic idea of mind power, I do believe, and using a schematic for tageted thought projection, does make sense to me. I think though, the proof is in the pudding, and being a psychotronic/psionic experiment, I’d think it’s affects may not be easily measured as the materialistic sciences are concerened, so we are entering the metaphysical area, it seems. It’s very interesting to me, and I want to approach it with an open mind, and I think one doesn’t really know, if such things work for them, unless they actually give it an honest trial, sort of like people who use crystals, or other alternative healing methods.

People will find the answers they want in the things they want to find the answers in. Our brain has a way of filling in the blanks for us to make us happy like that. You do create your reality. Ken

@tom502: “so many different models for different purposes” To maximize income from the gullible I fear.

Brad, I don’t know. Have you used any? But those that use them, all say they work. Though I am thinking these are more personal tools, and not like a coffee maker, more like psychicly driven machines. I haven’t found anyone say, I tried such and such, and found it to not work. Of course what ones uses them for would vary. I want to use it for personal betterment, and such things may not be easily measured in an objective way.

Most people hate to admit some crazy thing they spent a ton of money on didn’t work. Ken

I have no idea what radionics is. That won’t stop me from making some comments, which could be completely off base. One thing I really always find hilarious is the dogma of rationalism and it’s general assercian that anything occultish in anyway is definatly hogwash (I don’t mind nearly definatly so much). As if everything taken for granted was not at one time “occult” hell people used to think eating a plant and not being as sick anymore was magic. From what I can gather it’s some sort of brain tonic for lack of a better term. One thing we do know is that the human mind is pretty amazing and capable of a lot more then it’s usaly used for or at least noticed being used for. What people consider to be the potential I’am talking about ranges a lot from the extrodianary but relativily mundane like really awesome memory to the far out like I can read your mind. With either of these things not only would convinceing someone that something will really help can certainly have a strong effect. Ginko anyone? Then again how much do we know about the brain? I guess I’am saying I think it will work to some extent if it’s really a function of the “pyhsics” of the machine or if it’s a placebo (remember kiddies placebos don’t make you think they are working, they do work but it’s not their fault that they work). So even though I doubt it will happen I hope you start levitating around and end your posts with I typed this with my mind and no computer. Oh and devilock76 people love complaining about the crazy things they spent a ton of money on that didn’t work. See it all the time. My favorites are when someone complains that their product only worked as advertised and didn’t have magical powers. That’s a favorite of mine.

Tom you will have to keep us updated as to how you get on. The one i built was from a book called psychic power by a guy called cosimano. The one i made had a series of potentiameters and a scratch plate. Only cost a couple of quid to make. The guy who wrote the book goes on about psychic warfare and the like. Who knows what can of worms you might open.

bob, I agree with that. and pfab, I have read some of his material and looked at his schematics. The way I am seeing it, these machines, either machanical, electric, or symbolic, and standalone, do not so much do anything themselves, but work as a center of attention for thought/intent concentration, with a desired target and aimed results. I was reading about the Hieronymous Machine, and how it got a patent, and had to be demonstrated to actually work, then later, another researcher, his name escapes me, found the non externally powered circuit schematic of it worked just as well also. So, if this is so, it is the actual mind power and energies of everthing that is powering these devices. I am still a total noob about this, but this is what I am gathering. I hope my 2 machines I bought arrive tomorrow. maybe Monday.

Yeah but not anything they were told not to buy before hand by others, to avoid the I told you so comments. Ken

All I say is this, if there was someone who was a real mind reader then they would have already made a killing in poker. Just like if there was a real psychic they would have already gotten all the winning lottery tickets they could. Ken

As a man of science, I’m going to say this much: As a device for centering your attention (eg. meditating) on improving yourself, they MIGHT work. This is similar in effect to self-hypnosis of sorts, where you become what you believe you are. This I do not refute as a working theory. But making a machine, that works on brain power to “remotely” affect someone else (as is the goal of radionics, according to wikipedia), is utter hogwash as it is. You yourself said, if it is difficult (read: not possible) to measure results by modern science, then why would a machine (that inheritently is modern science) do anything? I just don’t see that happening. As a tool for self-hypnosis, maybe. As a tool for affecting someone else tho? Chuck it down to coincidence. Just think how many failures it takes to produce one positive. You’ll get the idea. Unfortunately, most of the so-called New Age - things are just made to rip off gullible people. The rest that aren’t, are based on misguided notions and misunderstood facts. I just hope you didn’t waste too much money on your Deus Machinae… Think of all the snuff you are missing because you bought those things

I disagree, because the machines have been proven to work, as the Hieronymous Machine was, and for the las 100 or so years, it has it’s proponents. As well as the government have been doing research on psionics and psychotronics. People gounded in physical material science may not want to accept these things, much like people in the past could not accept what we are used to today in term of what we call science, but that doesn’t mean it’s just not true. It’s just not fully understood and developed to be of common usage at this time. But it’s easy for people to be naysayers and pessimists, especially when it’s a field that one does not have a personal interest in, and no inquirey to explore such areas themselves. As a noob with all this myself, I don’t want to dismiss and shut my mind off of things without knowing, Things like psychic power have been shown to be real. True, for the general populace, it’s strange, but that doesn’t mean it’s invalid. But, I don’t want to get into debates here, because, I am new to this, and have only read some history and theoretical aspects of it. pfab is the only one here who has had some experience, and he has not outright dismissed it all.

Been shown to be real? Got a scientific study that has empirical data? As I recall no spiritualist was ever able to claim Houdini’s prize. Been proven to work? Ok show me a scientific journal with empirical data. When you say just because you understand it or just because it is not the physical world but it is still science what you are really entering into is pseudo science and for that matter religion. How about this is prayer healthy? The answer is yes. Now how about the why, is it because God is coming into you and making things better, or is it because of the meditative focus and the perceived well being. We can measure the possible effect, but we cannot measure the causality. So to not offend the religious or the scientific could we really make a ruling there. We can have hypothesis, maybe even a theory, but not scientific fact. Oh and whatever study you publish better have used control groups to monitor placebo effects. I think I will summarize with this quote: “Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.” - Han Solo, Star Wars Ken

Oops I posted twice.

Personally I agree with Mittens 100%, and tom when you say psychic powers have been proven be real I assure you they have not. There is a million dollar prize for anyone that can prove they have any psychic abilities of any kind that no one has been able to claim.

You are free to agree with whom you wish. I am not aware of the extensive studies you wish to see. Though I have read Hieronymous in order to recieve his patent, which was also for the 1st ever patented psychically operated machine, he had to demonstrate that it did work. This info can be found by searching, I’m not doing other’s research. The idea of this area of research, has been supressed by the medical field, that has a huge stake in their power and profts in their domination, with pharma. So, early radionic pioneers, like Dr. Abrams, was supressed, much like Tesla has been in the field of science. Of course, such practices probably would not work for you, because you have already declared them not to. So, there is no need for going back and forth. This to me, is a subjective experiential journey, and not cold physcal materialistic science, so we won’t approach this subject in an equal light. I am looking for this as something that may resonate with me, on a more spiritual, or pshychic level, you wan’t some geology test of a rock, yet are not prepared to even experiment with the practice. So, again, this is a subject of my interest, obviously not yours, and that’s fine. One who has this as an honest personal interest, will at least embark on a sincere trial, and not just try to dismiss it out right, baseing their objective with a need for hard physical materialist published peer reviewed double blind tests. Best to you. You don’t have to like or agree with what some others do.

Well you have officially entered ignorant quackery in my book. You don’t wish to back up the claims you believe in, and say those who don’t believe such claims are to do our own research. You asked a question, got some answers and you did not like them all or the commentary. Why ask? Why not ask for people to make you feel better about your waste of time and money? Why should I research what you are wasting your money on? If you have done that and you are happy with your results fine? But you are hear trying to pitch or qualify your expenditure and we are supposed to research your supporting clauses when we don’t agree. Tell me how does one prove a negative? How do I prove to you that ghosts don’t exist, or that the timbers from Noah’s ark don’t exist. I can’t say look they are not here in point a so they don’t exist, if I did you would say check point b, and c, and D. So if you are trying to convince others of your belief here it is on your onus to provide supporting literature. Otherwise deal with the fact that many of us think such things are for loons. When you go to court do you ask the other persons lawyer to prove your point for you? Anyway to refocus, when people start saying you look it up and it is all a conspiracy I know we are dealing with quackery. I am afraid my past experience as shown that pattern to hold true, enough so that I can call it a theory now as opposed to a hypothesis. You do know the difference between the two I hope. By the way, if you are happy with your purchase and feel more disposable income just leaping out of your pocket, please post to me so I can sell you some magic beans. Ken

Honestly I prefer anonimity to a million dollars thank you. I like the standards people often use to dismiss psychickness. Lottery or poker. Yeah it’s got to hit the areas of lowest probablity to be valid. Just saying that seems fishy to me.

My original post was if anyone had any experience with the subject(familiar with), and what their comments were. Only one person had some experience, and his comment was not dismissive. As I said in my last post, I believe we are looking at this in two separate manners, I am looking at this as a tool/practice for self reflection, betterment, auto-suggestion/affirmations, greater spiritual tranquility, increased feeling of well being, etc. These are not physical measurings one can find in a double blind peer reviewed materialistic rigorous scientific test. What you are looking for, as it seems to me, to be some end result that would fit the need or desire of such tests. My objective in this, does not. Now, if I was to try to wish myself 7ft tall using this, I think it unlikely to succeed. But using such practices to help me in the stated areas I mentioned, I believe it could be effective, just as other so-called alternative therapies can be, such as meditation. So, it seems to me, our disconnect, is we are approaching this in two different ways. I am not looking for some hard scientific testing to show me some geological survey or ore. I am looking for resonance with mental energies for greater balance and calmness, and insight. It’s as if we are somewhat arguing/debating(I don’t know, disagreeing) over two different things.

It is all new age hippie crap. Sorry that is all there is to it. But right now I am shooting mind bullets at all of you so tell me if you feel them. Ken

The hell with magic beans, I’ll sell you a charm that will protect you from dinosaurs.

It’s fine if you don’t believe in a spiritual, or etheral realm, or mental energies.

My experience is such things are junk. But have fun, seriously if you don’t like the potential negative responses to a question, and for that matter the random ones, why post them on a forum not dedicated to the topic at hand? You are just asking for the plethora of mixed response possible. If you want hand holding of your ideals go post on a forum with everyone who drank that kool aid. By the way if a pencil just fell of your desk that was my telekinesis in action, prove me wrong! Ken

Ok let me tell you about mental energies, they are crap to. It is nothing more than psychosematics. That goes for chi, and all that stuff. I almost give hara more credit as to when it focuses on manipulation of the center of gravity as that is a concept that truly can help one generate physical force. You are not special. You have no secret magic powers. If this FACT keeps you from having an enjoyable day, then imagine you do anyway, the results will be the same. Ken

Well, you are right, in that I probably should not have posted about it at all, I figured I’d get some dismissive comments, but I was hoping to get some from others that may have had some real experience with the subject, and not just negative dismissals from those who have not. I am happy I did get at least one comment that was aware of the subject and had some experience with it.

Well listen, I would like to send you some of my dogs feces. They can be mixed with milk and create a medicine that can cure herpes if drank a quart at at time while clicking your heels together. I have no scientific proof or independent testing to verify these claims but I can tell you this that everyone who has tried it swears by it and those who say negative things haven’t tried it. Because really it takes trying my dogs feces in some milk to KNOW that it is a good or bad idea. Oh and if you don’t need to cure herpes it can also cure: shingles warts welts decapitation inquisitors Guantanimo detainment sex change complications sex change reversal sex changes homophobia homosexuality sinning crabs crab apples crabby attitudes lazy eye lazy in-laws tax complications death lynch mobs lynchings Marilyn Manson knocking on your door deployed air bags sagging breasts over active bladder missing bladder when you run out of depends when you have the runs when the gerbil gets stuck and last but not least your excess money problems Ken

This is the problem I see here, and I don’t think I am seeing it wrong. For some reason, not sure why, but you are obviously feeling, not sure how to word it, threatened maybe, about the subject of mental energies, and someone’s interest in exploring it. It’s kinda weird. You have said you don’t believe in such things, it’s like voodoo to you, and that’s fine. I don’t personally care what you believe in, if it’s Jesus rising from the grave, or nothing at all. Your choice in how you precieve existence does not affect me, yet it seems mine does to you. You just want to put down and ridicule these topics of a non-material energy. I don’t mean to be a jerk, or be personal, but I just don’t get why someone’s personal interest in alternative spiritual therapies is having such a negative effect on you? It’s just a curious observation. Maybe you really deep inside do think there could be something to all this, but your materialistic so-called rational mind is fighting it, so you have an internal conflict going on, so you rail on about me expressing my interests. Nothing personal, I’m sure you’re a decent guy, but you seem over the the top about this in a nevative way, more than even the most die hard Voodoo believer.

Threatened no, evangelical yes, maybe, but not in a christian sense. See the thing is such things are predatory products. It is preying on peoples weaknesses and irrational desires in a desperate attempt to placate or build a super inflated self image. It preys on weak people and knows it. That is just the way the business model works and why such things go in and out as fads. Do you know why Houdini started debunking spiritualists, not just because his magic background made him more able to spot the “tricks”. His mother had died and he saw it as hurtful those that claimed to put people in touch with loved ones just to make a buck. The funny thing is Penn and Teller’s TV show BS is an homage to just that and created for many of the same reason. It is just very sick that people prey on others for such things. Yeah for you maybe it is a few bits of entertainment money on this bauble or that, but there are people who get completely sucked in by nothing more than fantasy claims. To me that is disgusting enough to get a rise out of me. That is all. You obviously need some type of personal re-enforcement to invest in such things, trying to fill some missing hole in your life. Let me give you a tip, all you need is you, and again that is a fact, and if you really believe that and that doesn’t make you feel more complete, then nothing you will ever be able to purchase will. Ken

I generally agree with that. It depends on the individual and how they approach it. I do believe it is all from within, though I don’t dismiss the positive use of tools, it is your own “power” that is “activating” such things. Sure, people can get suckered, but that doesn’t mean everyone does, and every alternative view is bunk.

Well I am not going to start using such new age language. Things work because we want them to work in such things. Which makes whatever it is really moot. We start filling in the blanks with our hearts and minds, and much like that can be said about the early religions. Still you are wasting your money on New Age Phooey and any old placebo affect would have the same results. That is why the company selling it has never themselves sponsored such testing. I mean if you sell a product that you really know and believe makes such things happen, why wouldn’t you commision such proofs. There is a reason pharma companies pay big bucks for Clinical trials. Ken

I don’t fully agree with that. I believe devices can be tools to help one in mental clarity and concentration, and other areas of self-betterment. I do think if one was to use some device to “wish” some outrageous meterial manifestation like a lost treasure of gold bars, then that might enter into the ridiculous. But my point is that it’s not all hokum, if one approaches it in a sensible manner. And again, I personally would not compare such psychic endeavors to materialistic tests. Like I would not put whole coffee beans on a psi-driven machine and “wish” it to be ground, and compare that with putting whole beans in a coffee grinder, and wonder which one will work best.

If it is not all hokum, then someone would have conducted tests to prove as much, or be in the process. Heck someone should call Mythbuster’s while we are at it. If I had a test that proved the potent healing effects of my dog’s feces I would surely generate even more business with such evidence. So I should do it. But I haven’t because the real reason people are naysayers is they are racist. Yes my dog is black, and a rottie. So they are anti-German as well. It is all a conspiracy, please try a big jug of my dogs feces in milk and you be the judge. The first batch is only $29.99 plus S&H. We accept Paypal for our Poop, Pal. Ken

Well, I’m not really a big believer of this stuff, but I have to say that many of the comments made here have been very childish. Why do people have to attack Tom for something he had interest in? If you don’t believe in it, fine. But why make an ass out of yourself? People like to preach about having free will this and free will that and how people should be left to do as they please (you know who you are), so when someone wants to try something that interest them, all you folks do is bash him. That’s pretty silly, and well I guess it’s hypocritical as well.

I don’t have any particular problems with people having interest in things that are “out there”; I know I myself am very much interested in neural networks and artificial intelligence. Nobody can show me a working AI (apart from the very coarsest definitions of the word) and nobody can assure me that it is actually possible to build such a system. But I am interested in the matters. What I have a problem is people selling bunch of shiny baubles or a pile of resistors and blinking lights as medical tool, or as something that will make you better somehow. Same goes for people who WANT them to work, and hence buy into the scam. Make an informed decicion, don’t just listen to the sales pitch, please. I’ve seen some of these things for sale, and the prices are extraorbitant at best, for the value of materials. Claims that things have been prepared in a psychic or psionic or whatever way in order to explain the costs is the same as me selling glasses of tap water as a cure for [pick your ailment] for 40$ a pop. I can see the drive some people might have to seek out alternative medicine / engines for the betterment of personal life. After all, once modern science and the community is exhausted, what do we have left? The bone I have to pick is with the scam artists screwing with people who have lost all hope. And when someone pays the asking price, they are enabling the scam to continue.

Tom dont be put off i thought you might get this sought of response. As you’ve got your machines coming you may as well give it a go and see for yourself and if it does not work at first stick with it for a while. It’s interesting.

I don’t know anything about Radionics. I would have to say it is more of people’s inner desire for knowledge and curiosity that makes folks look into new ideas and theories. This is natural for humans. How can that be a bad thing? Some are more curious than others. I don’t think it is being gullable. I suppose there is the danger of getting too obsessed with an idea. As a boy, I read everything I could about the Charles Atlas “Dynamic-Tension” program. New idea for it’s time…most folks called it crazy 70 years ago. Ironically, many folks are doing similar programs today and calling it new,LOL!

I like how Tom asked a question with a very honest and curious additude. Which is good. Because I’ll tell you what is bad science dismissing something without trying it because you already know. I don’t mind people disagreeing but come can’t you say your peace and leave it at that. Hell look at Yoga that was totaly a crank thing years ago even to the point where in this country you could be arrested for teaching other people about (because it was considered qauck). I’am talking mainly tantric and hatha yoga (which is the one most people are familar with) because western medicine refused to believe it could have any health benifits and also there was no way it could have the health benifits that it does have. Of course doctors recommended certain brands of cigarettes over others at that time too. I guess I’am saying it’s better to have an open mind and try things figure them out yourselve then let any dogma deciede it for you. For instance science is pretty awesome stuff but I don’t relie on it for truth or find it infailable because it’s very far from either.

devilock76 "All I say is this, if there was someone who was a real mind reader then they would have already made a killing in poker. Just like if there was a real psychic they would have already gotten all the winning lottery tickets they could. Ken " I just wanted to chime in to suggest that monetary greed does not exist in all humans, contrary to popular belief. There are those who would not use such an ability to acquire material wealth.

Yet there are people selling such things. Why sell mind reading if you could do it when you could make money easier using mind reading than selling it. Despite not all being motivated by such things, if mind reading was common enough one would figure a percentage of mind readers are motivated by such things. One would also have to assume one selling mind reading was motivated as such. I mean imagine if everyone you knew, knew you could read their mind, they would start avoiding you out of pure distrust and privacy. There really is no difference between the people selling these things and them selling the pyramid schemes they like to shroud in the label multilevel marketing. Now you want to talk about exercise and physiology that is one thing, but really comparing that (yoga) to mental energies and psionic forces. Have fun deluding yourself. I have no illusions that I will not change Tom’s mind. Hopefully someone else reading this who is on the fence between burning their money to stay warm and buying such a machine will learn that burning their money is the better investment. And to those who insist that bad science is not facing such unfounded and untested hogwash with an open mind, please go ahead pay pal me the $29.99 for me to send you my dogs feces to drink with milk. You should have an open mind about that. For all you know it tastes of peanut butter anyway, my dog does like peanut butter and constantly licks his own ass (wow that almost sounds like enough to make a theorem). Let’s be serious for a second. Let us say you believe in psionic forces and mental energies, and if they were real they must be powerful stuff. Why would you buy a device that had no independent research, testing, or clinical trials that could have such a deep effect on such significant things with in you? I mean if you really believe in that why do you believe that just because someone else says they believe in it their bauble will make it better? Now I gotta get back out there and collect more canine feces. I can see a lot of orders coming from all you good scientists with open minds just itching to drink down my dog’s feces in milk so that they can cure your case of impracticality. Once again that price is $29.99, pay pal me!!! Ken P.S. Like I said there is a reason Houdini had his debunking drive for such things. I have watched too many good people get suckered in for things like this, looking for quick fixes and magical solutions. I am not saying there are not quick fixes and magical solutions, but there aren’t universal ones you can bottle that will work for all. Once again $29.99 for those feces!!!

@Ken… Can I assume you are not an overly religious person?

@bob: “One thing I really always find hilarious is the dogma of rationalism and it’s general assercian that anything occultish in anyway is definatly hogwash (I don’t mind nearly definatly so much).” That’s how reason and science work I’m afraid. “Nearly definitely” is pretty much synonymous with “definitely”. Science can’t say “radionics is definitely hogwash” because you can never prove a negative. What it can do is say “it’s almost certain that radionics is hogwash because there is no verifiable evidence to the contrary”. And sorry Tom, but your assertion that “those that use [radionics machines], all say they work” is definitely hogwash. What’s depressing is that not only is this kind of argument still ongoing 250 years after the Enlightenment but that over the past 30 years or so anti-rationalism seems to be on the rise again.

For me the fun simply ends, when personal managers chose their staff via pseudo-scientific methods and this is indeed on the rise (for those who understand German: http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/jobundberuf/0,1518,691667,00.html). Our personal manager has a metal pyramid abover her desk, nuff said. All respect to tom, but I think it´s necessary to oppose all forms of anti-rationalism.

Wow, this thread got 49 comments so far. I don’t have anything more to add. I explained my interest in this, and how I understand it as of now, and the areas in which I want to use it for. When I do get the machines, I don’t think one would become an expert over night, as it’s truly a totally new area for me. So, it will take me a little time to figure it all out. That’s all I have for now

I have to say I hate anti-rationalism as much as I hate hard headed rationalism. Rationalism is a technique it’s a tool and certainly an effective one especialy for creating certain effects. Oh please drop comparing this to you’re dog shit shake. One reason that is a crazy comparison is that it implies that not only is tom potential wasting money but also that it’s explictly dangerous which a dog feces shake would be. As if you don’t understand satisfing ones curiousity would make it possibly not a waste of money which you must because you claim to be into science and rationalism both of which curiousity is essential. I also recent the the continued implication that someone who would buy something like this must be saying fuck the essentials like heating their home or eating food. Almost as if because someone is in disagreement with you about the possiblites that this may work they must be completely irresponsible in other ways as well. Frankly I don’t see how diffrent it would be to attack someones religion for how stupid it is. Why not attack the Saint medalions of Catholics or the talisman I made the other night. So what someone has a superstition you find stupid, guess what that is how superstitions work the ones you believe in you do and the others look stupid. What I find really funny about the rationalist is that most of them have no idea about the number of superstitions they demonstrate regularly. The acts of magical thinking they use the assumptions about how the world works that are as equaly unfounded as radionics or angels. You may say you don’t have any but I assure you that you do. Maybe you actualy believe that the lines on maps are “real” not semi-consensual maybe it’s something else. Maybe when you see your favorite flag burnt it hits you as somehow more terrible then a giant fuck you. Maybe you think a lot of things that to you make sense and seem totaly natural. But they are as superstitious as this and you don’t notice because that is how these things work in humans what we believe seems natural and senseable. So for one argueing about it is pointless and for second anyone else find it really funny that the person acting the most rational (i.e. calm and clear) is the person being acused of having irrational believes. Oh yeah is it so horrible to be irrational at times? I hope not because if it is then I guess fuck humanity because irrationalility has helped us out on more then one occasion. Again everyone is irrational everyone all of us. So why jump down someones throat and imply they should drink shit for one irrational behavior well seriously if irrationality should make us drink shit then you have to too because how rational is it to keep going on a pointless arguement??? Now if Tom was selling these devices I’d might understand the sound and fury of all this. Oh well anyone who thinks we are sane hasn’t been paying any attention to humanity.

“Can I assume you are not an overly religious person?” -Premium Parrots You have asked a tough question. So here is the answer, yes and no. I was raised Christian, I take my kids to church as I feel the community aspect of it is important, but for the most part most organized forms of christianity and general practicioners of it astound me. I don’t feel the bible is a book to be used as a literal work of history or law. It just does not apply and those who look to it like that and caught up in such dogma, well to quote Bruce Lee, “It is like a finger pointing at the moon, concentrate on the finger and you miss all that heavenly glory.” It is also like what Ghandi said about Christianity, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are nothing like your Christ.” Christianity has turned into this institution where the believers feel that if even on part of the bible is proven inaccurate then the whole thing is a wash. But that really shows their weakness in the principles. So do I believe? Well I don’t believe in creation, I believe that man creates these things to fill gaps. I like to think that there is something more out there, people can call it what they will. I feel no religion (that does not preach violence) is better than another. I feel people need to actually focus on what would Jesus do, they would probably find the best example in a man like Ghandi. Definitely not in the Billy Grahms and other ilk ok the world. So to sum, I walk a fine line between a man of logic and of faith. Maybe my faith is based on tradition, or my own weak need for the thought that there is something after death. There is no one on any issue that can preach from a pulpit of perfection. Honestly that makes the “preaching” more valuable anyway because they can truly relate. Have I answered your question sufficiently? Ken

Sweet Jesus Bob, paragraphs, learn to use them! 1. My dog feces comparison is fine, it applies, I don’t need proof that it works, so go ahead and send me money to try it. 2. The comparison to essentials was inadvertent, I was talking about wasting money and used burning the money (because buying wood or coal to burn would work even better). So that was accidental to analogize it to sacrificing needs for such things. My bad, sorry. I did not intend to imply that Tom was forgoing food on the table to buy such things. I don’t know him so how could I say such things? Tom if you took it like that then my apologies I did not mean to imply such things of you or your household. However, I will say I have seen people do just that, but I wasn’t trying to go there. 3. Here we go, the thing is this new age, pseudo science stuff is a religion, and if the practicioners treated it like that I would actually feel better about it. It seems to me (my opinion of course) that the proponents of it are people who really want to be atheists or at least believed to be such but they still needed this “answer” to feel whole, their mind truly could not handle that we are nothing but blood and guts that fades to dust. That is fine most can’t no matter how much rationalism there is. We need to learn to put it in its place though. Science fought a hard battle oppressed by religion, now religion (both established and this new crud) are trying to veil themselves in science in order to create a facade of legitimacy and it just doesn’t fly. When they do that, to me it is nothing more than a con, and no different from a good 3 card monte player on the street. The dealer is going to always win, the “customers” are just along for the ride. Ken

Oh and since you asked, my superstitions, I believe in most cases objects only have the “power” people place in them, if even that. I have this chip protector I like to use when I play cards. Call it lucky, or what not. Do I actually believe I get better cards with or without it, or play better either way, no. But I do like it there when I play. It is a large pewter ring of the grim reaper on a motorcycle. A gift of days passed, a souvenir if you will. I am a pretty simple person. If there is anything I believe is that everything changes and if there is anything we can accomplish in this life is to live simple and at peace. That is all. Should people follow my example, hell no. However they should send me $29.99 for my dogs feces. Ken

I wouldn’t buy anything if I could not afford it.

Calm down Ken! Tom was just showing his interest in something different. I agree with you its hokum, but who knows how these things work? If it works for Tom then good luck to him, but there is no need to go totally overboard at what started out as an innocent question. Stefan

Walrus is right that is my main issue and really the only one that actualy matters. Otherwise whatever. I have to admit I agree I think it is bull but really want to see what tom does have to say. Especialy since its far more fun to make someone believe something through demonstration then just to argue. Though I think we will know it works when we start sending snuff to tom for no reason. So sure I said what I said but disreguard it and remind me drink the coffee before the posting before not afterwards.

I don’t know if this has anything to do with radionics but the only explaination I can think of that with all we know today someone can believe that psychics are real is that they don’t fathom how much power someone with even very limited psychic abilities would have and how doing psychic readings would be an utter waste of that power. The only power so-called psychics have is the power of observation. If you have ever read a Sherlock Holmes story you would know how much a few simple observations can tell you. Many of the characters in the stories thought Sherlock had some sort of mystical power until he told them how he figured it out. It’s the same with so-called psychics the only difference is they don’t tell you how they figured it out they let you think they have some sort of mystical power so they can profit from it.

I would disagree then again I do read tarot not for profit cause well I don’t really want to. Though I’ve had enough experiences and conversation after a reading that have involved the how did you know that about. Including things that I really am sure I would not have observed about the person or really believe that I could have. Including things like the general way someones mother treated them when they where a child what specficily is the issue someone was having with their girlfriend. I honestly don’t know if I think anyone is psychic persay as much as I really think that material reality is a lot stranger then people tend to think it is and that the mystics are right that at the most fundemental level of exsistence things aren’t really seperated (and that we are the ones that draw the lines through definitions. One way too look at that sure you’re heart certainly isn’t your foot but they are both part of your body so they are both you. If you take that very far it can include everything.) That is just what I think. Though seriously I’ve offered before if anyone is curious drop me a line I’ll do a reading for you. It’s for fun so why not. !!!

There is a big difference between someone doing tarot cards for the fun of it and someone who claims to have psychic or mystical powers

The field of energy and psychic things is very deep, and little understood. I think everyone has heard we only use 10% of our brain. And it’s a scientific fact, that in reality there is no matter, everything is energy that vibrates at various rates. I think the whole energy and mind/spirit power is real, though as a whole, humans just haven’t developed it’s potential, not even a small fragment.

I admit I was lazy to read all the comments. I admit i had some drinks. But people, please any links about how to build that machine. Or any theory? I like to build ‘crazy’ things. If the machine is electronic maybe i can build it with no money because i’m in electronics business and have all kind of parts in stock. I remember the 2002-2003 year when i was building the first LED lamp prototypes in Bulgaria. At the same time American company was doing the same (red line inc) Many people told me “You are totally crazy dude! Go to your doctor!” But i believed in that technology and continued my work. Now LED light technology is worldwide recognized. Right? And my lamps are with the unique SRS (Self Repair System) they repair themselves as much as possible before they stop working giving their owner a lot of time (months to years) to replace them with new ones. Crazy things may become a working technology in the future… I just want to read more about this and make my decision if i want to spend some of my free time to build one. Experiments are the way to progress.

It is true we only use about 10% of our brains I remember reading somewhere that it is closer to 12% and we have not yet begun to unleash its true potential, I mean we still have tailbones which proves that we are still evolving since theoretically the fully evolved human form will have no tailbone whatsoever all that I’m saying is that those so-called psychics that charge you for their readings are only using the power of observation to scam you out of your money and that is a proven fact.

@bob: “I have to say I hate anti-rationalism as much as I hate hard headed rationalism.” “Hard headed rationalism” doesn’t really mean anything. Something is either rational or it isn’t. There’s no sliding scale. A belief that radionics or tarot actually work isn’t rational because it’s not derived from any reason, logic or empirical evidence. “You may say you don’t have any [superstitions] but I assure you that you do. Maybe you actualy believe that the lines on maps are “real”” Can you explain this a bit better ? A rationalist doesn’t have any superstitions, by definition. Lines on maps are definitely real, for instance. A map would be a useless artefact if it didn’t have any lines on it. Or maybe I’m missing your point …

@tom: “And it’s a scientific fact, that in reality there is no matter, everything is energy that vibrates at various rates.” This is incorrect and in fact the opposite is true. You can’t convert mass into energy or vice versa. You can only move them in spacetime.

I think Tom is talking about superstring theory, which hasn’t been physically proven yet, but so are many other theories of physics at moment.

@tom502, n9inchnails: “Humans only use 10% of their brain capacity.” That’s an urban myth. It’s little like the game where you sit in a circle with a bunch of people and whisper a line down the circumference. At the end the sentence is nothing like it was at the beginning. Humans don’t use only 10% of their brain capacity, but they do use only 10% of their brain capacity at a time. It’s the same thing as with new CPU’s, it shuts down parts to save energy and lenghten the service time. There’s a difference. @tom502: “And it’s a scientific fact, that in reality there is no matter, everything is energy that vibrates at various rates.” As I understand them, different theories either agree or disagree with you. Superstring theory, the hologram granularity theory, current particle physics… take your pick. Currently we just can’t be sure. On a side note, I’ve been dancing around this for the duration of this thread and waiting for either someone else to ask it, or for you to divulge the information. How much did you pay for those machines? @BradMajors: “You can’t convert mass into energy or vice versa. You can only move them in spacetime.” So if you can’t convert mass to energy, then I guess the nuclear powerplants are just a hoax, and nuclear wepons are a propaganda tool? And what do you mean by moving them in spacetime? It sure sounds fancy, but what do you mean by that? If I take my cup of tea and move it 3" to the left, it is in a different place than it was 5 seconds ago. Is this what you mean? As I understand it, spacetime is a abstraction methdod to make sense of certain theorems, but that’s all.

@Mittens: You are right I should have said we have conscious control of about 10% of our brains, I mean you don’t consciously tell your heart to beat and so forth, things like that happen at a subconscious level. @BradMajors: When you say you can’t convert mass into energy that is false, wood is mass and fire is energy so when you burn wood you are converting mass into energy.

I am just amazed with so many people who would have such an interest in not allowing nicotine and tobacco misinformation spread could not only believe but propagate such poppycock. I am sure your tarot observers didn’t point out all things that were extremely general, 50/50 type guesses and for that matter how many were wrong as a ratio wrong to right. People just react to the wow how did you guess that. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. They have done tests on this were most people only remember those rare hits and not the misses. Because they want to believe in it so again the “power” it has is tainted by the observers in most cases. Listen I will drop the subject if all of you just admit you are practicing a religion, not science. Funny thing about Doyle, despite the character of Sherlock Holmes being so anti-occult in practical beliefs, Doyle was very much a spiritualist. In fact he used to be friends with Houdini till Houdini started his debunking vendetta. Ken

@ brad I was trying to say that a lot of times people who claim to be completely rational have very irrational beliefs that fly under their radars. The lines on a map aren’t real except that people agree on where the lines are and how they effect laws. But they are made up. I guess I’am trying to say that some people seem to really belive in the lines on a map as if they where a law of physics or a natural law. As far as hard headed rationalism well if you believe that rationalism is the only legitimate way to look at things or that it is somehow able to find ultimate truth in all situations then that is hard headed rationalism and maybe I should say I hate it but I do find that to be a dellusional outlook and ironicaly irrational too. I also want to ad that I definatly believe in psychick ablities and phenomenon yet I think most people that traffic in such for a living are full of shit. Like one of the ones I love are predictions that are so general that someone who is desprate will go oh my god how did you know I had a grandmother who was a woman. Like the asshole who talks to peoples dead relatives on t.v. and then idiots are amazed that someone in the audience knew an Stephen. Oh and the ten percent brain thing is utter bunk. I wish I could rememeber the context it came from. Oh so is the myth that you lose most of your body heat through your head. Well you do lose most of your body heat from any expoused surface but the head is nothing special that way. Also I believe what I do not because I want to or that I read it was true but because of my own experiences.

Good post Bob, however a couple things. I think if I go to the border of Texas and Mexico I will find a very real line there, in the form of a big freaking river, funny it’s name about translates to that. Granted there are many that like to try to ignore that line. Also should I travel west across one of those imaginary time zone lines, a very real thing happens that my cell phone clock automatically adjusts. I mean I cannot observe a longitudinal line any more than I can observe the equator yet it still remains that the equator is the actual widest point of the earth, farthest from the geometric center of gravity. I mean if we want to be specific human beings really can’t observe time, we can only observe an arbitrary measure of it. Ken

Yeah ken that is pretty close to what I was trying to say. I guess another way to put it is what type of real these lines are and that some people put them into the wrong type of real. I hope that makes sense. This is one of the horrible times where I know what I’am thinking but I can’t find the right words to be succint. My eloquence is on hold today might be the hangover.

I’ll admit my metaphysical science ideas could be considered a religion to some, contrasted with materialistic “accepted” science. I was watching the various machines, and types and how they sold, and reviews, and being a noob, I found some rather cheap ones, I’ll say approx $200, which is low comparitively. And I figured if after experimenting with them, and not finding it beneificial, or fun, anymore, I don’t think I’d have a problem selling them, if I wanted to.

RadionicsSkeptics FAQs (all of the nonsense arguments postulated here answered, without vitriol)Better mind-opening things to spend time and money onSuburban Myths e.g. “we only use 10% of our brain”

@Xander: Excellent choice of links there, Good Sir. Have a cookie.

I’d rather have a Finnish Panda. I will have to settle for Swedish salmiak instead.

I agree Xander excellent choice of links. I must admit my interest and research into the workings of the human body to be rather laxing in recent years. Lately my interests and thoughts have been more geared toward cosmology and the nature of the universe as well as the beginnings of life and early evolution. I also think that this discussion has gone on long enough and this is the last post I’ll be making here.

So let me get this straight Tom, after you are scammed out of $200, you find it only fair to scam someone else out of $200? “Materialistic science”, yeah because the people working to cure cancer are greedy bastards, unlike the people selling $200 magic whirlymajigs. If you prefer I can grind my dogs feces into a powder and call it a medicated snuff for you. The price though will now be $49.99 for 25 grams. That is a really good price considering what you are about to spend $200 on. You are truly delusional, but like I said, I type this not to change your mind, you are already proven as a lost cause. There is a Ron White line about that. However hopefully this thread will preserve in fora posterity as an example. Who knows. Ken

You are just filled with negativeity. These devices are not magic jenies, but a tool to concentrate life energy. Maybe like a Yantra. These things are not coffee grinders. I think you have a pessimism, because you arn’t understanding what these are, and what they are for, and their uses vary. The Abrams approach with rate numbers corresponding to illnesses is not the method I am using, though that is interesting. And the tools are not scams, unless you think it’s a magic jenie, and energy directional amplification to effect physical change would not happen over night. It’s like Tarot deck, in a way, in that it’s what the person does with the tool, the tool itself probably does nothing. I’ve explored many spiritual paths and did not resonate with them all, passing on such tools is not scamming anyone else if I felt the practice did not resonate with me.

You sell something that does nothing of what it claims and that is not a scam? No negativity here, just positive about what I speak. It just isn’t what you wanted to hear when you sought attention for the subject here. Or maybe it is, I mean there is no such thing as negative attention for some people. Trust me I understand science very well, and I understand scams, very well there too, what you are speaking of is assuredly the latter. You just said exactly what I have been saying. It is nothing but an amulet that any “power” it has you are placing in it through belief, hence religion not science. Look you are deluded and doomed to waste your money on these lies. Numerous links placed here about the BS you are spewing and you are willing to spread that to others after it does not work for you and be justified in that. You call all other science materialistic other than your modern day witch doctors hiding behind pseudo science. You are actually no better in principle than those that insist creation be taught in schools as scientific theory, and I say that as a Christian. Look, just admit it is nothing but religion and magic beans. Then you can stop trying to seek our support which apparently you need before you begin your supplication to such devices. You really are deluded to the point of being comical. Ken

Well, if these radionics machines help someone to relax, they have therapeutic value thus are rational. People are too uptight about these kind of things here. Personally, I stick to old guns for my spiritual needs: alcohol and religion.

I think that’s the main disconnect. devilock thinks these are magic jenie lamps, and they are not. They are used to facilitate meditation, and affirmation, and concentration.

@tom502: The main diconnect is not the magic jenie lamp argument. The main disconnet is this: A meditative aid is a polished rock you found on the beach, a trinket that’s been in the family for generations, or an effigy you build out of natural materials. A 200$ pile of resistors and plastic is not a meditative aid, it’s a scam.

You could say that about near everything, in terms of spiritual tools. I do think it’s a scam for the one who believes it’s a scam. So for you, it would be. I am still new to it, and in trial stage now, so I have not reached a conclusion. I know this, and any medition tool, spiritual aid, is not a magic jenie lamp, and one has to put some effort into working with whatever they are trying to use, be it a mantra, a yantra, roserie, pyramid, crystal, prayer, tarot, I ching, radionic device, whatever.

why the dog shit? What is that dude. Seriously you can’t find another metaphore? I know it’s probably just the one that you feel most clearly convey your thought and opinion. Though the constant repatition isn’t doing you any favors, and is starting to take on the stank of fetishism of some sort. I’am serious please for yourself and the rest of us please pick some other object to express ineffectualness or no one will take snuff or food from you because they’re starting to think that you really like the idea of people injesting poopies from puppies. It’s not too late you can pick another object and save everyone the discomfort you’re very close to inflicting on everyone. Or keep on keeping on and at least you’ll know why that people won’t make trades with you not because they don’t like you but cause they will be afraid of added dog poo. I do think you do just think that it’s a perfect metaphor however…

Yes, I can tell that icons, miraclous medals and saintly medallions really work better than dog poo. And the lines on maps mentioned earlier are absolutely real, I can guarantee that from my over 30 years experience as an artilleryman, topographical surveyor and archaeologist.

I guess one way to put it is the map isn’t the territory and is only real in an informational sense. Saying some people don’t realize this and it seems to go under their radar mental speaking. The one point I was trying to make is that even when someone doesn’t realize a superstition it doesn’t make it not a superstition.

“You are truly delusional, but like I said, I type this not to change your mind, you are already proven as a lost cause.” -devilock76 “Look, just admit it is nothing but religion and magic beans.” -devilock76 You are contradicting yourself with these two statements. You state you do not wish to change Tom’s mind regarding the device yet continue to prove otherwise in consecutive posts. Has Tom’s inquiry about this radionics device struck a personal chord with you? I see no other reason why you would continue on this long otherwise, trying to prove that the machine has no inherent value. If one believes this machine may assist them in producing something positive in their life, it very well could. This may only be a placebo effect, but an effect nonetheless.

Bob, it was the silliest thing I could think of to try to sell someone, and thus makes it a good analogy for this. If someone seriously thinks I would spend my time collecting dog mess for such purposes then I have a bridge to sell them to go with their radionics garbage. NJE03, actually I changed tact when Tom contradicted himself, he started off insisting there was science behind it and now it is instead a focus point, something I actually said from the get go. It is called adapting to an artful dodger. Imagine this scenario, just pretend you are a hypochondriac, you go to your doctor because your stomach is always bothering you and insist that you need nexium or some other rather expensive drug for it. Your doctor knowing the truth perscribes a sugar pill instead, but you think it is the latest experimental drug, better than nexium. So spend $100 a pop in copay and what not to keep up the illusion that you are buying the latest brand medicine. Then after time you come to discover the truth that you have been taking a sugar pill, whether it worked or not, would you really be ok withspending $100 a pop for something that should cost $3? I consider this the same thing. Why not just get a big box of radio shack parts? I bet that is what the seller did anyway. Ken

Ken, this is something that is harming neither Tom nor anyone else. If he’s interested enough in the idea to invest some money and doesn’t feel cheated then that’s fine - to use your last analogy, a placebo won’'t wok if you know is a fake from the start. Sure the discourse has changed as this argument has gone on and it’s fair to call people out on that, but there’s no need to attack anyone. This isn’t something I believe would work but that’s by the by. Let us (or me at least) know how you get on Tom.

@Spam: “If he’s interested enough in the idea to invest some money and doesn’t feel cheated then that’s fine” ->Except that it isn’t, really. Remember, when you buy into a scam, you are helping the scammer to continue ripping off even more people. @tom502: I really do hope you get enough enjoyment out of the machines to justify the investments you have made on them (both monetary and temporal). Be proud of doing your part to rip off the pensions of those who have lost their hope. But that’s all I care to get involved in this matter from now on.

This whole thread sounds like a bunch of “Don’t get into my business, but while you are here… why the fuck are you buying that”. @Mittens: How is Tom ripping anyone off? I’m sure that anyone getting into Radionics has done their research on the pros and cons. So much for free will. And you hypocrites bitch about the government.

Exactly what Mittens says. I find it a sad statement of the human condition that in this age, the internet makes it possible for information to reach any corner of the globe in seconds and what happens instead is that misinformation is running rampant across the internet faster than you can say New World Order. Be it people insisting on crazy conspiracy theories, to scam new age ideas, free energy machines (don’t even get me started there), or people convinced that vaccinations are bad and recklessly endangering their children. Read some of my comments regarding Houdini and how he devoted a great deal of time into debunking charlatans just like this. They do much more harm as a whole than people are willing to admit. Tom wanted this attention anyway. If he just wanted people to say go you on this fool idea he would have just posted to a forum dedicated to it where he would be guaranteed placating responses. Instead he posted here, on a form about a tobacco product, which is ironic in a way as tobacco has so much misinformation surrounding it. Ken

I think he’s making a point about funding the people who sell this stuff? (sorry to put words into your mouth Mittens, if that’s not what you meant). You present everyone who believes in this kind of stuff as weak and vulnerable and in need of protection yet Tom is evidence that that isn’t the case. If only someone as kind as you would save us from our nicotine habits and the evil tobacco companies who fuel them!

Good point spam. Please save us.

I wish I could. But you guys are already corrupted way beyond a mere lost cause ;_;

I do have to say I really do hate the vacine thing that is going on. Especialy since there is no conection to vacines and autism or really anything otherwise then an insanely huge number of people not dying or being crippled for life. What I hate the most are people that get self rightous to people about how bad they are for vaccinating their children. Then again what about the religions that don’t allow medicine which I think is fine for adults but it amazes me that it’s considered not child abuse to deny a child a medicine that works for religious reasons.

@devilock76 Regarding post #88 in which you present a hypothetical situation regarding a doctor prescribing sugar pills and charging as if it was a pharmaceutical drug, while I understand the point you are getting at, I am not convinced it has any merit when discussing the issue at hand. Tom has already stated what he would like to get out of the machine, and it is not to cure any particular ailment as in your hypothetical. He intends to use the machine for, and I quote, “meditation, and affirmation, and concentration”. PS: For the upset stomach scenario, turmeric will help at a much cheaper price than $100.00 pharmaceuticals.

Spam, I present that people who believe in this stuff and label it as science are hiding behind that reasoning, and that was how Tom’s arguments for such things started in this thread, now that we are 100+ posts later. NJE03, it is just fine an analogy, well as best as can be had in things like this. He is purchasing a “device” that he feel will work to improve his meditation “results”. He is willing to pay a great deal more on this then similar things that those who practice meditation might call focus points. Sorry that is the best generic term I can think of, I know there are a myriad of meditative arts out there. Anyway, Tom in these posts has tried to allude to proof or evidence that it works and testimony that it works from others who have tried it. Which is I guess justification to pay $200 for such a thing that now he is saying is just a focus aid. Oh and Tom, I don’t think it is a genie in a lamp, never even used those terms, although I do see people pushing these things professing results that would mirror such magic claims of fiction. OH well, have fun with your religious practices, because that is what they are. But they are not science as you said to start this debate and do not say now. And in that I feel there has been a small victory for rationalism right here. Ken

NJE03, I actually used Nexium as an example of one I got prescribed at one point for Reflux a while back. It made me sick. After bouncing between medicines I had enough and was getting concerned with how such medications can affect vitamin absorbtion. So I decided to work on lifestyle choices to help reduce my need for such things. Now I get by with the occasional pepcid, as needed. Thankfully I now can go weeks without needing a pepcid. Well unless their is a chili cookoff!!! Anyway the Nexium reference was thinking back to a rather potent, non generic, and not for everyone medication solution. I just picked it as I had first hand knowledge of the medicine. Ken

Fair enough. I understand what you are saying.

@bob: “As far as hard headed rationalism well if you believe that rationalism is the only legitimate way to look at things or that it is somehow able to find ultimate truth in all situations then that is hard headed rationalism and maybe I should say I hate it but I do find that to be a dellusional outlook and ironicaly irrational too.” It’s irrational to claim that a belief in rationalism is irrational.

@bob: “even when someone doesn’t realize a superstition it doesn’t make it not a superstition.” In the case of the lines on a map, I think you’re confusing superstitions with abstractions. You’ve yet to come up with an example of a superstition which a rational person believes in without knowing it.

@cstokes4: “So much for free will. And you hypocrites bitch about the government”. I firmly believe that it’s the government’s job to educate, not to prohibit. So for instance I don’t really have a problem with prominent health warnings on cigarette packets but I do have a problem with some aspects of PACT. What I’d like to see is similarly prominent government warnings on products like radionics machines, homeopathy products, healing crystals and so on. Something along the lines of “WARNING: THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DEMONSTRABLE EVIDENCE THAT THIS PRODUCT ACTUALLY WORKS”. If you’re not going to ban something from being sold, at least inform the purchaser that they are about to waste their cash.

@BradMajors: Not a bad idea about the warnings. Here, Good Sir, have a cookie.

I can’t believe this thread is so popular. Well, I am finding the subject very interesting. I haven’t morphed a pile of money or anything(yet), but have enjoyed messing with the device. If is does do anything, I don’t expect it’s effects to be overnight, it’s more a subtle process. I also must stress I am a noob with this, and only recently became interested in this, and have a lot to learn in it’s use, so I am in learning stage. When I mentioned scientific evidence, I was referring to the older pioneers of Dr. Abrams, and Dr. Downs, in their experiments, and Galen Hieronymous’s machine, which I have read he had to demonstrate it’s working, for his Patent. I do not know the particulars of these, though I have read it mentioned. Hans Weltz also says he has demonstrated the workings of his expeirments, radionics.org. Though, it seems to me, the use of radioncs has morphed, from purely an alternative medicine, to a more metaphysical/spiritual tool. One is totally free to agree with it, or not. I don’t see a point in making demeaning attacks against it, or going personal. I am far from an expert in the field. But I do believe in life energy, and psychic possibilities, so I can’t say it’s all bunk. But with any new technique, it does require some learning, and experimenting to best utilize and understand it all.

Wouldn’t you agree that to be rational you have to look at the value of various things relativily objectivly? Also wouldn’t you agree that as a rationalist you look at something for what it is (including your own nature) while minimizing the effects of your own prejudice? So if the answer to these questions is yes then it’s easy to explain why I think being a hard headed rationalist is not very rational. For one thing it’s not the only valueable part of the brain and it’s various functions in fact a lot of really usefull and important thoughts are totaly irrational. Also humans aren’t rational creatures and it really isn’t in our natures. Not that rational behavior and thoughts are not a natural part of our makeup I wouldn’t consider it the “primary” defining quality of humanity. So what I’am saying is if you are a real rationalist you’ll value other modes of thinking as well as rational thought because for one you’re human and you shouldn’t a problem with that and you’ll also be able to see the value of other types of thought and that they are usefull.

@Tom, I don’t think anyone can claim the existence of such things is all bunk. As mittens already stated it is not really possibly to prove an overall negative like that and there are things science does no know yet. However it is pretty easy to prove that there is no noticeable effects from a specific device, practice or method. Ken

That’s not true, as TM has been shown to have real effects.

TM? Ken

Transcendental Meditation. It has gone through lots of testing. But I’m not the one hung up on tests and such, just mentioning something that has been.

What studies would those be, as I can quickly find ones that say there is no proof. One example Excerpt: “CONCLUSIONS: Many uncertainties surround the practice of meditation. Scientific research on meditation practices does not appear to have a common theoretical perspective and is characterized by poor methodological quality. Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence. Future research on meditation practices must be more rigorous in the design and execution of studies and in the analysis and reporting of results.” And of course if you look into it more you find the problem with the “studies” that do confirm it is that they are conducted my advocates of the practice who not only have a vested interest in the results of such tests but go into it with the preconceived notion as to what the results will be and that is NOT following scientific method. Ken

This direction doesn’t even interest me. I am not interested in debating whether or not psychic and metaphysical topics are scientifically measureable. That’s your kick, not mine. I am only interested in the subjective experiences and realizations of practitioners, and theories and ideas on life energy manipulation.

I thought that these machines were a means to amplify your psychic ability. So i suppose if you have no ability then they would not work or maybe that the psychic muscles would need flexing a bit before results would be gained. Hence why they would not work for everyone.

Ok wait let me review here: I said: “@Tom, I don’t think anyone can claim the existence of such things is all bunk. As mittens already stated it is not really possibly to prove an overall negative like that and there are things science does no know yet. However it is pretty easy to prove that there is no noticeable effects from a specific device, practice or method.” Then you responded as a counter point with this: "That’s not true, as TM has been shown to have real effects. " Of course you also added this in the clarification of the initialism you used. "Transcendental Meditation. It has gone through lots of testing. But I’m not the one hung up on tests and such, just mentioning something that has been. " Then I post something that contradicts your false assertion and now that direction doesn’t interest you. So in short you would like to make wild claims with no founding or basis in fact and would prefer that people not call you on your BS. What do you call your fantasy land? I mean if you were in politics then it would be called “The District” but seriously what is the name of your fantasy land where you can say whatever you want without others responding that you are full of it? Ken

At pfaber, no they just don’t work. There has never been a scientific study that could prove any measurable result along their claims. In addition there has never been proof of any type of psychic ability that has stood up to scientific method. There have been major prizes out there for anyone that can, they are yet to be claimed. Ken

You’re just a non-believer. And that’s fine. Not everything can be measured by material science.

So call it a religion, don’t make assertions that there is proof when you have none. You are the one that said it was proven, not I, I just pointed out that you were wrong, then you backpedal to that not measurable garbage. I mean really it is. Yes most things can be measured by science if they have any provable impact or effect. It is obvious you have no background in science by saying such things so maybe you should stop trying to talk that talk. I am also going to wager you were never on a debate team in your youth. Ken

Oh and since you have turned to talking of TM, let us post this link. What’s the harm… Ken

I’am actualy scared of T.M. I think it gives people cancer. Not very sciency but more it seems kind of strange how young some the famous practioners of T.m. have died from cancer. The only one that comes to mind of the top of my I can only think of two andy kaufman and Bill Hicks. It’s seems to be at a level that isn’t proof but still suspect at least to me. Plus the main guru scares me.

Well I would doubt TM causes cancer as well. However it might convince someone to not get proper treatment for it. My stipulation is these things have no provable medical effect, pro or con. However they can have a very big negative social effect. Ken

If you’re just a materialist, that does not accept spiritual and metaphysical things, then yes, you probably won’t find concrete evidences of them. I tried to appease your desire for “proof” only repeating things I have read. It does seem some pioneering experimenters did keep extensive records, but I don’t know more than what I have said. I have said, in regards to such matters, to me, the need for concrete scientific scrutiny is not something I need to have, to affect my personal views on psychic matters. And to those involved in such subjects, I don’t it’s something that one feels the need to have, because most of this is of a subjective intuitive realizational consciousness aspect, and not comparable with scientific measures of accepted institutions. This back and forth is going nowhere, because you just don’t believe in things that are beyond sensory materialism.

I haven’t said any such things, I said call it a religion, don’t sit there and say there is proof for it. I mean if after 5 pages you can’t get that then your $200 would be better spent on a class to teach reading comprehension. Religion and science are not peanut butter and chocolate, they should be kept separate, not mixed, for the good of all. So go ahead and admit it is religion, that there is no proof of any sort whatsoever. Failing to do that you are just proving how irrational and deluded you are. I mean if you are just a loony who does not accept facts and scientific evidence then you won’t get the advantages of logic and critical thinking. Ken

Religion and science are actually quite similar in the sense that at their roots, they are both trying to explain the world around us and how it all fits together.

Actually,science only deals with “how”,religion\\philosophy deals with “why”.Scientists could never tell you “why” grass is green,but they can tell you how it gets that way.

I did admit, that it is in the metaphysical, spiritual, and psychic realms. I guess one could call it religion. I did not mean to claim it was scientifically validated, though I have read that Hieronymous did have to prove his machine worked for the patent. I don’t know the details. It’s near impossible to debate something of a spiritual nature with one that only accepts as “real” something that must be seen or touched, and able to be scientifically measured. Again, this thread is going nowhere. It’s not about debate of spiritual or pshychic phenomena over testing of mineral ore. I have stated I believe in psychic/metaphysical phenomena, and you have make it clear you do not. And that’s fine. Though I suspect most do. Just because an energy is unable to be scientifically measured at this time, does not mean it’s not so.

The big difference between religion and science answering questions is thus: Religion; lack of evidence = must be (insert deity)'s will. Science: lack of evidence = continued testing needed, no conclusive results at this time. See how the latter encourages one to keep trying and not take a shortcut explanation for certain things. Ken

Actually Tom, I have made very few statements about what I believe, other than stating I am a Christian in tradition and some practice. I really haven’t talked anything about what I believe. I have merely worked to debunk things that some people keep trying to present as facts which clearly aren’t. And remember, just because someone on the web tells you a $200 and up machine will do something, doesn’t mean it does. I do agree with you that many do believe in this stuff, even worse some might believe there is real science in that, and that is dangerous and has ruined peoples lives, so therefore such claims needed to be dealt with on the offensive, because they are offensive. Oh and on a side note, the popularity of a belief does not make for a claim to its validity. If that was the case then there would be no debate as to the existence of God since quite simply most of the planet agrees that there is some man in the sky passing judgment on us all. Ken

Anyone have any experience using a pendulum?

My cuckoo clock has one

Using a pendulum? For what? That might be more operative. We had a grandfather clock that had one in it. Worked quite well. A couple magnetic toys. Physics experiments in high school and college. All the above uses achieved measurable really real world results. You should maybe read this book by Umberto Eco: http://www.amazon.com/Foucaults-Pendulum-Umberto-Eco/dp/0345368754 Ken

Professor Calculus used pendulum succesfully in Tintin, like in book Flight 714 and others, so there’s proof it works at least locating alien landing areas.

@TheJanitor You can surely see that religion does indeed attempt to answer the “how” (How does Earth exist? According to the Bible, by God creating it.) as well as the “why”. And I would say that science does this as well. For example science may ask why species are as they are and then come to a theory such as evolution.

Thanks Allan. I was curious about it’s use, and how it compared to finding correct rates on a black box. I’ll ask that at a specific group I’m on.

@NJE03, your god created it example is the religious equivalent of “because I said so” that parents say to their children. Because it is God’s will is the answer of many things by Christianity. There is no how. I mean God doesn’t leave a cook book there saying for a three toed tree sloth you take 12 toes, 4 limbs, add a touch of fur, mix that up with a snails metabolism, let simmer for 2 hours and viola, three toed tree sloth. Neither does science say why, in the religious sense of because it was good or so, more in your example of evolution science tries to identify causality, for example trying to identify the survival advantage say bioluminescence creates, I use that example as science is still not sure as to the advantages and uses of it especially in regards to deep see life that utilizes it. Ken

Tom, Allan is referencing a comic strip: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\\_Calculus\\_Affair One must assume his citing that as proof was sarcasm. The funniest part though is you took it as serious with no research into the reference or subject matter. Then again I am wondering if that was Allan’s point? Ken

All I knew was that his answer was not about what I was looking for, so I had no interest to look it up.

I really like this thread. Hope it goes on forever.

OMG! 3 hours and no posts in this thread. I’m gonna suffer bilateral obstinance withdrawal!

So in short you are too lazy to even Google and prefer to remain as blissfully ignorant as possible unless it fosters your belief in mystical junk that gets a free ride raping your wallet at your own behest. And you talk about others not having a open mind. Do me a favor, next time you google something, take the time to google the word hypocrite. You may find a picture of yourself. Ken

Sorry, I had practice tonight, I will try to keep the entertainment flowing. If this thread goes forever great, if it gets deleted great. Either way it won’t be another page on the internet where the proponents of these shams go unchallenged. Ken

devilock76, have you ever used the machine in question? YOU personally.

@bob: “So what I’am saying is if you are a real rationalist you’ll value other modes of thinking as well as rational thought” Your argument is that a “real” rationalist should also value irrational thinking ? That’s not a logical argument, but I can see why you would want to think this. You’ve said that you “hate anti-rationalism” but also admitted that you “definitely believe in psychic abilities and phenomenon”. So you’re attempting to legitimize your irrational beliefs by claiming that they are in fact rational. “in fact a lot of really useful and important thoughts are totally irrational” Like what ? Name a single material benefit to mankind that has resulted from irrationalism and you can have that cookie Mittens gave me. It looks delicious but I’m on a diet.

@tom: “When I mentioned scientific evidence, I was referring to the older pioneers of Dr. Abrams, and Dr. Downs, in their experiments, and Galen Hieronymous’s machine, which I have read he had to demonstrate it’s working, for his Patent. I do not know the particulars of these, though I have read it mentioned.” You didn’t bother to find out the particulars, but you were happy to dish out two hundred bucks on the off-chance that radionics might work ? It only took me five minutes of searching to find the following snippets. “The American Medical Association had one of the black boxes opened and examined. They found “an ohmmeter, a rheostat, a condenser, and a magnetic interrupter” but found nothing in the machine that could either read or send energy waves as Abrams had been claiming”. “Drown’s black box was tested at the University of Chicago but it failed to work as promised. “Researchers who have put Drown and other radionics advocates to the test have been unable to verify their diagnostic claims”” “Abrams, Dr. Albert (1863-1924). The consummate quack”.

@tom: “Just because an energy is unable to be scientifically measured at this time, does not mean it’s not so”. Correct. However, it does mean that it is extremely unlikely to exist. Nobody has ever seen a flying spaghetti monster. But that doesn’t prove they don’t exist. “Impossible to prove a negative” has been mentioned a few times now - can you grasp that concept at all ?

I have a Flying Spaghetti Monster on my desk. He also vists me in my dreams and shares his wisdom with me, so stick that in your snuffbox and snuff it.

No NJE03, I have not, and if you feel that I have to in order to comment on it to the negative then please tell me where to send your free sample of my dog’s feces to try, because you have to try them before you can criticize their purpose as a legitimate medicinal item. Ken

My interest in Radionics is more in a self-help, spiritual area of interest, not in the specific ailment healings like Dr. Abrams and Downs, my interest is more of a “new age” type thing, like Pyramid Power and Crystals. Though I won’t bunk the other practices, as it does have it’s world proponents. Though I am still in trial experimental stage, I’m not going to learn, and be able to do many practices with it, in just a few days, and to gather if it has some effectiveness, whether it be the machine itself, or my mental interaction with it.

Yet you reference them in your defense of these things?!? This is why I consider you an artful dodger. Ken

You know what this whole thing reminds me of: Napoleon Dynamite Time Machine Ken

That’s super badass!

I looked like Uncle Rico back in 1982; same hairstyle, moustache, muscular body and of course I was very childish! Would love to go back, those were great days!

All you need is a flux capacitor a Mister Fusion and a DeLorean. If you don’t have a Mr Fusion any power source that can generate 1.21 gigawatts will do. Ken

I’m going to make my own, I found some shiny rocks in the back yard, and some aluminum foil, and a glass pendant, I’ll place under a paper pyramid.

You know, it might need some of our latest product, Fecal Fuel, to power it. Place your order now!!! Ken

I have 3 dogs so I have an abundant supply of raw fecaltron psycho-power substance, as I have tied around their tails, a symbol of Atlantean power generater with a copper wire.

I don’t know, you should feel the psionic energy that flows off of our kennel. It is AWESOME! Ken

Wow what a thread I believe I just read every comment. So my input. Has anyone bothered to listen to maybe. Tool for example. 46&2 isn’t just some numbers. It is about looking into yourself and evolving into something else, a Godlike being. as proved by scientist they say that when we were monkeys we had 46 Chromosomes. Now days they have proven that we have 46+1. The next step they say is 46+2 or 46&2 thus It would be a Godlike being. But to get here you have to study one’s self. To look into your “Shadow”, and then take that step. and sorry Ken but saying that this machine will not work is like saying that the world is flat. No one knows until it is proven, or until someone steps out and tries to prove it. You go for it tom. Everyone told Noah he was crazy for building an ark and saying the world was gonna flood, but he went ahead and did it and everyone else knows what happened. And for the record. Everything is made of Protons, Nuetrons, and electrons that all merge together to form something. There for everthing is just a big vibrating mass connected by all of the particles.

Oh boy, more players to the game, where to begin, well let’s start at the beginning: I like Tool, for their music, however I am always wary of what entertainers have to say as far as life advice. But anyway, yes a human has 46 chromosomes, however a gorilla has 48, not sure they are a higher order animal but unlike our other close primate relative, the chimpanzee, and us, they are a less violent species, so let’s call them at least more civilized. Additionally a chicken has 68, as does a wolf and an african wild dog. For that matter a crab eating rat has 92 and represents the highest count for any mammal. A Dolphin has 44, yeast 32, kangaroo 12, earthworm 36. Sounds to me like chromosome count has little to do with defining a creature as a higher order species. I bet if Maynard was say a researcher and not a lead singer he might have looked that up, oh well, the song sure rocks. Radionics is not tested, well in fact they have, how about some examples: American Cancer Society National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (this last link kind of stinks, it states in there that results and evidence are lacking and discusses the practices) finding links on this stuff is a pain. There are dead links for sites that claim positive research, geez wonder why they are dead links?) Bottom line of both, it is hokum, but you can read yourself if you so choose. And again, by your logic, you should try my dog’s feces in milk, or as a snuff, I am working on a new poop pendulum to be available by Halloween 2010. Go ahead and prove it doesn’t work. Oh boy here we go taking the Bible as a literal work. National Geographic That darn fact and evidence thing again. It sure is a bummer isn’t it?!? You edited while I was posting, some quid pro quo then if you will: First of all Hydrogen atoms do not have neutrons. You also missed quarks, leptons, gravitons, gluons, for that matter you left out all force carriers, and let us not even discuss anti-matter. However I fail to see how that is in the neighborhood of coherent as an argument either pro or con to the discussion at hand. Ken

I have to add I find it funny that you reference the thought the earth was flat, I mean that and helio centric theory were blasphemy by the church, then you reference noah and the flood myth as a reason to do it. It is kind of hard to have it both ways with how you use the references. Then again that can be considered a standard modus operandi for many “believers”. Ken

Well in my opinion Evolution is a hokum. But that is my opinion and what I choose to believe. Maybe you believe you came from a poo flinging primate. And maybe you believe that some gases just came together and Boom the whole universe was formed. Well that is your opinion and scientists opinions, that’s why they are still Theories, and not facts. I’m not saying that God did actually create everything, I’m just saying that everyone believes something, and everyone has their own ways of going about it. I mean what if Tom suddenly became able to read your mind over the internet or something to that measure. Research can all change. I mean there was a time when scientists said that Carbon Dateing wasn’t even correct. Then a few years later they come back and say it is. All and all we are in an ever changing world.

And that shows you have no idea what a scientific theory actually is. You appear to be relating it to a Hypothesis, which evolution certainly is not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific\\_theory See the thing is Scientific theory is basically this, they have plenty of facts and data that support the hypothesis enough to call it a theory. The only reason it is not considered a law or fact is that there is no definitive first hand way to prove it. Creationism has no data or fact or research that has ever supported, other than a book written by inspired men. Therefore creationism is a hypothesis at best, and it has no supporting facts. I like to think of what Louis Black said on the matter: Louis Black - Evolution “Whenever someone says they believe the earth was created in 7 days, I grab a fossil and say, ‘Fossil.’ And if they keep talking, I throw it just over their heads.” - Louis Black Ken

@devilock76 "No NJE03, I have not, and if you feel that I have to in order to comment on it to the negative then please tell me where to send your free sample of my dog’s feces to try, because you have to try them before you can criticize their purpose as a legitimate medicinal item. Ken " I do not require sampling dog feces because I am not claiming it does nothing without having tried it. I acknowledge the fact that I simply DO NOT KNOW whether snuffing dog feces has any medicinal merit. You on the other hand are actually making a claim that you KNOW the truth about radionics machines when in reality you do not know one way or the other via first hand experience. Do you see the fallacy in your statement?

Well devilock’s non-belief, is his belief, his religion, with it’s fancy tests, and authoraties. While I can see why people may think non-material energy explorations maybe voodoo hokum, I believe there is something more than just this flesh form and rocky ball. I may not have materialistic scientific proof, nor know if any actual field tests have been done, and what they are, but for me, it’s an intuition, and that’s all I need. And on the topic of Radionics specifically, I have not experienced it for myself, but I find the basic theories to make some sense, to me. But, everyone is different, and some get into these metaphysical ideals, and others just can’t help to but to find them unbelieveable. And that’s what makes the world go round. Now where is my Fecaltron Atlantean Super Isis Chi Amplifier?

So you are saying you have to try snuffing excrement to know if it is a good or bad idea? You couldn’t possibly go on all the possible chemical analysis that exist out there of what lives in excrement that it might be a bad idea? I can use research and science. For example we know how far away the sun is without having to actually set someone on the sun to say, “I’m here, can you hear me now”. Ken

So you are saying in other words that the scientists don’t have a fact that that is what actually happened. Huh kinda seems like what I said.

Religion, aka faith is belief without proof. I mean it really wouldn’t be faith if you had proof, it would just be acceptance. That is the very nature of the words. So you really can’t call critical thinking based on facts and research a religion. Unless you are just delusional and can’t accept that you just want something to be true despite all evidence to the contrary. Ken

lol this is great. *gets some popcorn*.

For example we know how far away the sun is without having to actually set someone on the sun to say, “I’m here, can you hear me now”. -devilock76 I should hope so. “The Sun’s outer visible layer is called the photosphere and has a temperature of 6,000°C (11,000°F).” Source:http://www.solarviews.com/eng/sun.htm

Faith without proof is religion you say? So it is your religion that says radionics is bunk. I think I understand now.

No, but then again you don’t seem like the type with reading comprehension. So let me try again, probably wasting my time but here we go, whee! They have lots of facts. From carbon dating to genome studies to the fact we have actually observed evolution. However in the absence of a time machine there will never be irrefutable proof because there can never be first hand observation of past evolution. There are no facts to support creation, none, zero, zilch, nada. Is that clear enough. I mean you could have just read the link. That would have made it clear. I am sure you will mangle what I typed again, and only address part of it. If you want to enter the big boy games you should learn to have the courtesy to address all points, as I have done for your fallacies. Ken

Ah NJE03, here we go: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith Main Entry: 1faith Pronunciation: \\ˈfāth\\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural faiths \\ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\\ Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide Date: 13th century 1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one’s promises (2) : sincerity of intentions 2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust 3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Important point, firm belief in something for which there is no proof. That is religion, which really is the point I am making, there is no proof that this works, calling it science or based in fact is hokum, calling it religion, well live and let live. Like I said I never said it wouldn’t work, I said if it did it would be based on psychosematic results. There are tests out there, I have posted them. Do I need to go to the sun to verify the distance any more than I have to do the tests myself.

Again, your address please to send the fecal frostys to!

Ken

Ehh… Quite frankly, I have no desire to learn whether or not ingesting fecal matter has any value, particularly in the form of a frosty. I will be more than happy to remain in ignorance regarding that. So please, feel free to enjoy those on your own time as I want no part in it. Bon appetit! The following is quote that I feel accurately sums up the general sentiment in this thread: “A man’s private thought can never be a lie; what he thinks, is to him the truth, always.” -Mark Twain

@NJEO3 I’m sure there is a way to argue with that. Just wait.

You can keep all your fancy book learnin’, and whatever so called facts and studies. All I need is my Photon Crystalized Thor’s Hammer Power Pendant. And I rule the world!!!

“A man’s private thought can never be a lie; what he thinks, is to him the truth, always.” -Mark Twain heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell noo. thats about the dumbest thing if ever read. Just think of Hitler! I thought id speed thing up a little.Godwin’s Law

Let’s think about this. Ok I think That Radionics is False. So to me that is truth. Say you believe that Radionics is Fact. That is truth to you. We are not saying what others think about what you think but what you yourself think. But you are true. Damn Hitler. Wish I had a plan to rule the world. “What are we gonna do today Brain?” “The same thing we do everyday Pinky. Take over the world.”–Pinky and the Brain

I think my main point, which admittedly gets mired in my sarcasm and Parodied Purveying of Poo Poo, is that have your religion, fine, have your science, fine, try to sell one as the other, not fine. I think most logical people would agree with that. Ken

Kcazman, people tell me I should have been a lawyer. Ken

I agree with both statements. I have no rebuttle.

We should all now meditate on this, it is the closest to accord that this thread has come since page one. Goosfraba~ Ken

LOL sorry I don’t believe in meditating.

“I don’t believe in Beatles, I just believe in me.” - John Lennon Ken

Now you’re bringing the Beatles into this.

@GoldenBoy You are misunderstanding the quote. A lie is knowingly telling someone a falsehood. If one believes something to be true (whether in reality it is true or not) they are not lying.

“what is true, is true for you”

Nah, not a Beatles fan, but I always liked John Lennon. In the Pulp Fiction scheme of things I am more of an Elvis guy, and I have the mutton chops to prove it. Ken

George was my favorite.

He was a great musician. Ken

So ken guess you’re not a fan of Moorish science either.

I am always a fan of more science… Oh moorish. Uh, well do I really need to answer? It is a religion, so whatever, but calling itself science… Are you just trying to put the fire back in this thread? Ken

So What about Scientology???

[retracted]

I think I missed the part where my opinion needs to be levied on all things of faith. Neither is based on science, they seem to like to have it in the name though, and that is about all there is to it. Ken

I “believe” you are correct.

Resisting the urge to link clips from South Park. Ken

No just pointing out a funny misuse of the word science.

“… have your religion, fine, have your science, fine, try to sell one as the other, not fine.” I think this is a very fair statement, no matter what you “believe”.

@ NJE03 I belive you misunderstood my post, I was merely making a joke. I thought that would be clear by adding Godwins Law.

I suppose I did, and for that I apologize.

At the risk of getting harangued for this, here’s what I think. In England we get American shows like Maury and Jerry Springer on satellite tv. Most of the people on these trashy tv shows are, pardon the language here, but obnoxious twats. You Ken are a prime example of an obnoxious twat. Just accept that somebody wants to try something different, why take it as a personal affront on your very being? You are letting your country down by being like this and presenting a very negative view to non Americans about Americans. I believe that Radionics is crap but there is no need to be compelled to make 7 pages of arguement just because somebody expresses an interest in being different. You are heading for a stroke or heart attack soon, calm down and turn your vitriol and bile into something positive if that is possible for you. Stefan, the English twat.

OMFG, that was amazing

Jeremy Kyle show is full of intelligent Englishmen and women.

Well I wouldn’t go as far as to call either of the arguing parties “twats”, but this argument has been thoroughly enjoyable. tom502- if you want to buy into this science/faith/belief whatever it is you think then by all means go ahead. But at least read the arguments against it, and educate yourself before jumping in willy-nilly with fistfuls of cash. devilock76- you may be correct, but if a man wants to spend his money on something, why not let him. If he wants to throw it away (as you claim he is doing), so be it. Secondly, there’s no need to be downright rude and insult peoples argumentation skills. Thirdly, giving yourself little ego boosts mid-argument really makes you look stuck up. Walrus1985- Do you not realize the sheer hypocrisy in your post? You chastise devilock, and then proceed to do the same things that he did earlier. Judging by your picture, i’m going to assume that you’re from England in which case your “holier than thou” attitude is fitting. PS: Isn’t this a snuff forum?

For the last time for the people a day late and in the cheap seats. We were all in accord till you chimed in, I guess you needed some attention for some reason so this response is generic without responding specifically. The point is that I and no one else really cares what Tom does. However when people start claiming this is science and not religion therein is the problem, because it is not science, not proven science at least. Those are plain false hoods and the fact is there are many people who have been hurt believing such erroneous claims. Go back and click the What’s the Harm site which lists MANY real examples of death and lives ruined from belief in such claims. If you think I am taking some erroneous high road, well maybe that is because I actually have facts and data to back up what I am saying. As for differences in religion, if you want to believe your toaster oven is the savior of the universe, it makes you a better person, or feel better about yourself, fine have fun. If you start telling people your toaster oven is better than their oven, or attacking their convection oven in the name of your toaster oven, well there I have a problem. If anyone thinks I am not smiling while I typed every response in this thread then I am not sure what to say if you are taking someone so seriously who in the span of a few days created an entire line of absurd alternative medical products based on his dogs waste products. I do try to use silly analogies not for the sake of mocking others but for the sake of helping establish tone in some manner as more light hearted. There is no real tone to text, so it is pretty absurd to assume I am stressing and straining and pompous or whatever when I am talking about Puppy Pooh Pendulums. As for us Yanks, if you think I am uncouth, you have seen nothing of the depths of poor social graces possible in this land of the free. However be thankful at least that I can express a thought without resorting to profanity. Oh and I am a representative of nothing and no one but me and that is everything. Now I have to go put my new mud tires on before the big tractor pull tomorrow, yee haw. Ken (Count Twat-ula)

an old roomate of mine and his girlfriend were on the jerry springer show once she played a hollywood hooker and he was her pimp they got free airfare and a couple of hundred dollars and a fancy hotel for a few days … carry on with the radionics ( smile )

Are you suggesting that the Jerry Springer show is staged? For shame!

If he starts saying Wrestling is fake I am out of here. All Hail Andre the Giant!!! Ken

Kcazman wrote: “Wow what a thread I believe I just read every comment”. … then he wrote … “sorry Ken but saying that this machine will not work is like saying that the world is flat. No one knows until it is proven”. … seemingly oblivious to the several comments which have pointed out that it’s impossible to prove that radionics machines don’t work. Which illustrates one of the facets of believers in such things - that they have a closed mind. They will claim the opposite of course. “You should have an open mind and admit the possibility that radionics machines might work”, they’ll say. But the opposite is true - they will pointedly ignore any facts, evidence, demonstration or logical argument which contradicts their beliefs. There’s been plenty of this closed-mindedness on display in this thread.

@Kcazman: “Well in my opinion Evolution is a hokum. But that is my opinion and what I choose to believe. Maybe you believe you came from a poo flinging primate. […] Well that is your opinion.” It’s your belief that evolution is hokum. Fine. But it’s erroneous to state that it’s a “belief” or an “opinion” when someone claims that we evolved from “poo flinging primates”. It’s a scientific fact backed up with huge quantities of hard evidence.

@Kcazman: “Ok I think That Radionics is False. So to me that is truth. Say you believe that Radionics is Fact. That is truth to you”. I mentioned the Enlightenment back at the beginning of the thread. It was the catalyst for all the wonders of the modern age. We’re now enjoying the fruits of 250 years of empiricism, rationality, logic and the scientific method, all of which are used to establish the independent “truths” about the world around us. It doesn’t matter how many people believe that radionics machines work or whether it is the “truth” to them. The actual “truth” is that it is extremely likely that they don’t work.

@Walrus: “At the risk of getting harangued for this, here’s what I think. […] You Ken are a prime example of an obnoxious twat”. Hope you don’t mind if I give you a bit of haranguing then, old bean, because I strongly disagree ;o) Ken has done a terrific job of attempting to ensure that all the anti-rationalism in the thread doesn’t go unchallenged. And as Red Star said a while back, “it´s necessary to oppose all forms of anti-rationalism”. This is especially true when believers in anti-rationalism reference science and attempt to use logical argument to legitimize their beliefs to themselves and to others. (Of course, if you’re attempting to have a logical argument which begins with an illogical statement, you’ve already lost). We’ve had reference to “scientific facts”, “proof” and “evidence” which are all either straw men or which demonstrate a lack of understanding of the scientific method. We’ve had references to “mass” and “energies” and “chromosomes”; when they’ve been challenged, the argument is either ignored or mutated. As Ken has repeatedly said, if only the believers would admit that their beliefs are identical to religious beliefs, i.e. that they have no basis in reality, the thread would probably have come to an end on page one.

Perhaps there is more to reality than science can even comprehend, something far more “real” than what we call reality. As a matter of fact I know this to be true, however others may know this to be false.

Most things we take as common science and fact today, was once thought of as magic and superstition. While the ideas behind radionic today, may largely be considered hokum, is a couple hundred years from now, it may be proven true. Modern science is learning new things all the time, that transcends what we could not even comprehend in the past. The search is on, for realities that go beyond mere material senses, as well as bindings and workings of the universe that would be subject matter in the 50’s Outer Limits. I cannot say the Radionic devices work, and they are not all machines with knobs, there is a vast array of styles with different objectives in their use. I will say, I believe there is a potentiality in that they might work. At heart, I believe they are psionic in nature, meaning they are mental power driven, and their mechanical designs and some with electric power, and various other ingrediants, are meant to amplify one’s own mental power. The practice, is very similar, as I have read, to ritual magick. The idea is to concentrate will and intent. Many practices utilize this, such as Buddhist chanting, spellcraft, and ritual magick. If we look at how everying is vibrational energy, and how everything is interconnected, and how every cause has an effect, it seems these thing would have to work, at least in some way, but I suspect on a more subtle way, and not like a fast jenie lamp. I don’t believe one can put “millionaire” on a trend plate, and be a millionaire tomorrow. But I do think one could put “prosperity” on a trend plate, and run the device, and in time, the act may influence one’s mind in a subtle way, to guide one to areas that could lead to prosperity. But in all areas, it is you that is doing it, the devices in radionics, and any magickical practice set the causes, the ritual and paraphenalia amplifies the intent, that’s why spellcrafters use various things in their spells, to amplify the intent, and set the cause for the effect they desire. So, in theory, based on what we know from a mental, and energy based view, I do not believe these practices are hokum, but they are an artform, and require practice and learned increase in consciousness and workings of it.

Devillock I detech your sarcasm about wrestling. Seriously never call wrestling fake call it scripted. I think the best way to look at it is wrestling is a lot like ballet with more testosterone and bigger boobies. Just had to throw that out there.

I want to add to that ken is being a dick not a twat. He is also being a little dick which in this case is better. To make more sense what I mean is yeah I don’t get why he is pushing as hard as he is and his methods to get his point across are somewhat crass and rude towards tom. Though he isn’t going for the juggler. So he’s being a little bit of a dick but who hasn’t really. I do hope this is understandable. Fingers crossed.

Thought I had to post this in due to the Wrestling Lovers Thought I had to post this in due to the Wrestling Lovers

Wrestling is the best comedy anyone can watch on TV.

True Tom, but here is the thing, it is the claims of science. People shouldn’t look at science as having the answers. All science is, is a method to collecting data which may point to certain truths about observable and measurable phenomenon. When someone says something is scientific, they make a statement that what they are talking about has gone through this method. But if it hasn’t that is fraud. You are right, science may one day prove that such devices work. However at this point the tests they have conducted have not produced any discernible results. Does that statement say it does not work, no, it says that the claims cannot be corroborated by empirical data. Now most scientists and rationalists would conclude that it does not work. I am not even going that far in the big picture, what I am saying is you cannot state that there is science behind it when there has never been a study that proved it. That is all there is to it. And as I have stated and has Merriam-Webster (and I would Wager Oxford, although my copy is at home right now) belief in something without proof is faith. All I am saying is don’t go saying belief in such things are science, nor is the absence of experimentation (especially when there is not an absence) proof to the positive. Like I said in another thread, where I live we like the term ornery. I do consider my sarcasm less disrespectful in a discussion than those who choose to respond and quote me out of context, dodge my points in a response choosing to search for one they can turn more inflammatory than the post was on a whole, and those who make claims that they cannot back up with references in such a discussion. All of those are an insult to the other partie’s intelligence. Ken

I have never gone after a juggler, however there was this mime once… Ken

I am fine with calling it a faith. And while it seems the early pioneers at the turn of the century, who used it for medical purposes where trying to make it a science, the bulk of individual practitioners and device sellers that I see from today, do not make it out as a science, but as a metaphysical “magick” practice. One of the top people in the field, Karl Welz, does not market his items and practice as an accepted science, that I can tell. www.radionics.org

Then we were all on the same page, at least till the next new comer tries to re-stir the pot. On another mention, there has been some statements about multiple realities, and to a person that can be true, but to a society the goal needs to be too work for one common reality. At least for the sake of communication to work within the same basic set of ideals as to how we relate to the world. Think of trying to have conversation where neither person had a shared language. What would really get accomplished? Part of the goals of such things in science and mathematics is to have a common frame. They are almost universal languages as 1 + 1 will = 2 here or in England or in Indonesia, although in DC I am not sure! The thing is anything could happen in the future that change perspectives. I mean what if one day actual Aliens were to land here. Or we were to discover life in our own travels. How are we devout Christians going to resolve that to the creation story. Doesn’t fit well. Or imagine aliens come here and tell us, no sorry, Einstein was wrong, oh and look at our Radionics drive. Well some researchers might have some egg on their face. But in those unlikely scenarios, we are just talking about what if. We need to work with now, what do we know now, and then what can we do tomorrow to learn even more about now, then. And then then will be now, sorry was watching Spaceballs last night. So let us all agree with what is known and science now, and we can all see what happens tomorrow when it gets here. Ken

I feel now, that this thread has been a great help to me. Not to debunk the practice, but to gain a greater understanding of what it is, and how it works, to where I feel more confident to work with it. I also thank devilock, who may have come across to me at first as dissmissive and negative, which maybe he was to a degree, but interacting with that, has given me a greater clarity, in being able to explain the practice, in a sensible more learning way, to others, but more importantly to myself. I of course continue to stress I am new to the subject, but I figured it would be a learning process itself, and will continue to be, so in general this thread has been very insightful to me. I feel I am mentally resonating with radionics even more now, then when I made the first post.

I am flattered, even as the accidental muse. Ken

Sorry to bust your bubble Ken, but 1 + 1 does not always equal 2 Ex. 1 sperm + 1 egg could equal 1 kid, or 2 or, 3 or, 4 and so forth. Just thought I would put my 5 cents in. Anyone feel free to scorn me. But this is proved by Science.

Actually they form one unit and at that exact moment the mass of the one are equal to the additive mass of the two. Like you have 2 buckets of sand and you combine them to one bucket you still have the additive amount of sand. Additionally the two gametes form one zygote and cell division begins rapidly, so shortly there after there will be two cells, and on and on as more nutrients are added to the system allowing it to grow. I mean if we want to wax semantical… Ken

And that reminds me of this quote: “Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.” - Obi Wan Kenobi Ken

pwnd

@Brad fair enough. I just don’t understand why he had to take it so personally and blow an innocent request out of all proportion. I must say its been entertaining but bloody pointless lol. Stefan

I’am glad that people do have a sense of humour. They also have green homour and red humour and all that. Trying to take it way back to the before there was science.

How was anything taken personally? I think you have appointed yourself Net Nanny, hehehehe! Ken

Lmao I don’t think so its just how your posts came across to me. Stefan

Like I said, I was smiling during posting. A rather usual pattern. Ken

I would be happy to have one of these machines and open it. They look like some kind of RF transmitters. The big question is how do they emit so low frequency impulses. Do they use a carrier wave like all known radio/wireless communications and at what frequency? I also have a theory how this machine wold work, based on my assumption that it actually emits electromagnetic waves: You know, our brains emit low frequency electromagnetic waves while working. This frequency is not constant but is changing while brain goes into different states like sleeping, working, fear of something etc. Now what if, we put an auxiliar generator of electromagnetic waves with similar frequency near our brain? More or less it will be disturbed by this and try to adapt to it. Well, science is still exploring the brain construction and nobody knows how it actually works, but still thats why you should try devices like this with open mind. The brain can change its frequency to make it the same as the auxiliar waves or it can resist and keep its own frequency. In first case you can lower your frequency and take your trip in sleeping-like mode or increase it beyond normal and overclock your “computer”. Some people with trained minds can do this without the help of generator of electromagnetic waves. In the second case you will get nothing or headache. But how it makes my water better? Well you can kill bacteria in your water by microwaving it. Now you have better water. You can also radiowave it with radionics machine. Its actually the same thing. Also some molecules have polarity. That means that they start to vibrate with the radiowaves and eventually will break down to something less toxic. Now you have even better Live (or radiowaved) water. You know, people like Magic. Science fiction is impressing with all these high-tech devices that can do magic. Who will buy a boring thing like RF transmitter? If these machines are not fake, its normal to be expensive. First you need to have equipment to measure the strenght of generated waves, their frequency, the electrical parameters of your device etc, which is expensive. You need to have license to own and use RF transmitters. This takes a lot of time and experiments to make a working device. And you need some guys to risk frying their brains and beta-test the machine. So a lot of expenses and not so many customers.

Lyobo has a good technical point of view there.

Makes sense to me.

Yeah, well, it has nothing to do with RF. They seem to just be glorified ohm meters.

They are orgone generators. http://www.orgone.net/

I’am an orgone generator. Seriously I’am not kidding. Just ask your pets they’ll tell you. Seriously I’am only kinda kidding about that.

I am just hoping its farce they are comparing microwaving water to kill bacteria with some pseudo science cleansing effect from RF waves. I mean boiling the water will kill bacteria let’s just boil our brain. We can also forget the fact we need many of the bacteria that live within us to survive. People should try my Dog’s Doo Doo Shakes with an open mind for the same reasonings. Ken

Only if you sample this snuff first:

LMAO had a great time with these posts but think i’m gonna keep out of this one for a while. Thanks for the arguments and criticism Ken.

Age before beauty! Ken