I just got this email from genuine tobacco.com Great news from Genuine Tobacco Company! FEDERAL DISTRICT COURT ORDERS A TEMOPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER AGAINST THE UNITED STATES OF AMERCIA, PREVENTING THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE PACT ACT As many of you know, the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009 (PACT Act) went into effect today. This act prohibits the mailing of cigarettes, smokeless tobacco, RYO/MYO tobacco, etc. This was the worst possible news that we could have received as this means that we cannot serve our customers in the fashion that you have become accustomed to. This week brought some great news as Federal district Judge Richard Arcara allowed for a temporary restraining order preventing the enforcement of the act. A hearing has been scheduled for July 7, 2010 in the United States District Court, Western District of New York. Until further notice, we once again are accepting orders for smokeless tobacco, leaf tobacco, snus, and RYO/MYO cigarette tobacco in addition to cigars and pipe tobacco. You may begin placing your order through our web site today; however, there may be a delay in shipping your product until we are able to rebuild our inventories of products and supplies.

Federal Judge Richard J. Arcara: “PACT Act violates various provisions of the Constitution, including the commerce clause, the 10th amendment, the due-process clause and the equal protection clause.”

bizarre

All this pain can just be overturned by one judge ruling against? That is either the very best or very worst of systems.

SWEET!

“overturned” temporarily until the hearing.Even if our side wins you can bet everything the US govt will appeal.But they could still lose that appeal.That pesky constitution gets in the govt’s way sometimes.

it isn’t overturned it’s a good sign it maybe over-turned. It will be a nice day if it is. Especialy since the reasons he stated are pretty basic and will leave some egg on a lot of faces.

Something tells me the Seneca are to thank for this, because of the location.

Indeed, Carol. I am positive they are. We should all send them thank you cards. I was waiting for this, just didn’t think it would happen this soon. There is still the issue of FDA registration, but that’s really just a formality.

Treading on the Constitution has been customary since it’s inception. Those who speak for limited government always expand it, to their liking of course.

I found this online petition Opposition to the PACT Act (Snus/Smokeless Users) link

People seem to forget that even George Washington levied taxes. They also seem to forget the sheer complex world we live in. How many nations did the US have to deal with 200 years ago? Not that many. The Global Economy changed everything, like it or not.

@Snuff Hunter: This is beyond a petition. The legislation has already been passed by both chambers and signed by The President. The only thing that can overturn it is a law suit, like the one now in progress. Judges are immune to petitions, as they should be.

FDA registration just a formality? Ummm, … if so it’s a formality than can take years and cost many thousands of dollars, sometimes many millions. Some years ago an FDA audit of the plant manufacturing the General Electric company’s Pacemakers, they believed they found unapproved components on the work floor. The Plant was closed, Engineers filing cabinets, desks, personal briefcases and contents were all loaded onto semitrailer trucks, along with the complete contents of the stock rooms and all work in progress. In Less than 24 hours as the word spread throughout the Medical community, G.E Pacemakers were unsalable, and that portion of the company was closed, hourly workers were released, professional staff were found jobs at other facilities-within a week. Six months later the seized goods and material were all returned with a statement that after careful evaluation … no discrepancies were found. Pays to remember that the sole purpose of the FDA and it’s employees is to find reasons why a product or substance is to be disallowed or banned. This is how job security is enhanced and promotion is cultivated. The FDA 'approval requirement 'is actually the most onerous portion of this asinine piece of moronic legislation. Ah Well, JMHO as always, of course I worked later with some of the displaced GE engineers, maybe I’m prejudiced.

@cstokes4 “Judges are immune to petitions, as they should be” But Politicians are not Immune and they are very good at influencing judges.

It is an unamerican act, I hope it is overturned. The FDA thing as well, but as others have said, it’s not about state taxes, but about availability, and being able to get your stuff through the mail, and not having to be home and sign for a UPS package.

@Snuff Hunter: PACT was passed with consent by the Senate, which means no vote was taken. So exactly what politicians are going to stand against it?

You mean some people still read the Constitution? Hopefully this will get stuck in litigation all the way to the supreme court and that august body will do the same thing they just did re the second amendment.

@ cstokes4 I couldn’t tell you exactly which politician will back peddle and stand against it, but I am sure it would be the politician who has a majority of his constituents complaining about the PACT ACT. A petition is the constituents voices appealing to a politician to act in their behalf. A constituent is one who appoints or elects (and often by implication can also remove or recall) another as one’s agent or representative. The PACT ACT could be the stepping stone for any internet sale of any type of goods to now be taxed and regulated.

Statement from the Seneca Nation on cNN this evening: “The scalpings will continue until moral improves…” Not quite sure how to take that.

Okay okay this finally makes some sense. If Obama really wanted to help stimulate the economy and end this recession he wouldn’t spend Millions wait Billions of dollars enacting a Law like this that only hinders the transaction of goods and capital. The dudes a fuckin’ idiot. Honestly I wonder if any research went into finding out how large the percentage of online sales was in fact done by minors.(Bet they didn’t) I know that sounds like an impossible task but believe me it’s amazing what you can do these day with computers and unlimited funds… Now as for the whole “equal protection clause” that’s probably not applicable or at least hard as shit to support. Yes it does grant equal “protection” but not equal “rights” and therein lies the problem. Tobacco is a good but one that is taxed and with any taxed good certain restrictions/laws are applied and enforced. But whatever, let the courts duke it out…

This is a step in the right direction. Perhaps this will turn the tide more favorably in our direction. Even if this doesn’t put everything in hold or shoot this down entirely…there is always the chance it will change the structure of the law to where we are in the clear all together or give us a big enough legal loophole to jump through. For now I will cross my fingers, listen to some Leonard Cohen, and continue to nurse from my pre PACT survival stash.

No money was spent on this act (all was stricken in the Senate revision) which is why it passed by unanimous consent. No millions or billions. Obama is in the executive branch now, not the legislative. They’ve done loads of research, except their clueless disregard for speciality tobaccos. I’m sure the smokeless clause was introduced by nefarious industry authors looking to keep Swedish Match out of the US and signed on to by well meaning but clueless Senators.

Yeah, I have no doubts that the smokeless clause was lobbied for to keep superior overseas product from cutting into the US smokeless market.

Swedish Match is big in the US tobacco establishment, with their cigars(I’m not familiar with cigars), and they own Pinkterton Tobacco, which makes Red Man, Timber Wolf, Longhorn, maybe more I’m not aware of.

@Juxtaposer: Did you drop acid or something? We don’t have any idea what you are going on about.

It looks to me he had a round of drunk posting.

In any event, I hope this sort of vulgarity and insulting language is not going to be tolerated for long, because I didn’t join this board to endure such ill mannered behavior. I am constantly amazed at the way people talk to each other on the internet. Are people really that angry, rude and small minded?

@wildwilliam: In a word, yes.

@giaach: Is your reactionary hatred of Obama so great that you’re willing to absolve your legislators, Democrat and Republican, who crafted and passed this legislation at the behest of their lobbyist puppet masters, and call the president of the U.S. a “f****** idiot?” Really? Real classy.

@Juxtaposer: Hope that was a drunk post too! This Pact BS has riled up all the forums I visit, it is hard on everybody, everyone feels the stress, even those not in the US. I cannot imagine what caused that outburst, but I find it sad since you are a great resource and member here. I find this forum to be refreshing since it seems to be more civilized than most, the profane comments really stand out here, I hope this passes. Peace Brother!!!

Don’t do the brown acid!

@kyrios: Don’t worry, I think that if anyone except Obama would have signed this, the majority of the “Anti-Obama” crowd would be pretty quiet. I can’t be mad at them for their ignorance.

When was the last time a President vetoed a bill that passed the Senate with 100% majority and the House with a 90% majority. Vetos are rare anyway. Politically speaking, it just wasn’t going to happen.

I think Alan Grayson said that if Obama had a BLT for lunch, there would be folks out there crying out for the banning of bacon.

Never. And let me clarify, by ignorance I mean the fact that the bill did pass with overwhelming majority in the House and then went to the Senate to meet unanimous consent. Politicians vote on their constituency. So when the bill gets that kind of voting record, why wouldn’t the President sign it? If you want to be pissed at anyone, be pissed a the Senate. They could have at least voted on the damn thing.

@Carol: Haha, yep. Alan Greyson is a smart cookie. He’s my Congressman. And before anyone says how nutty he is, keep in mind that he worked with the Holy Ron Paul on the Audit the Fed provision.

The Senate revision was considered “non controversial”, so it passed with unanimous consent. That version was passed to the house, which “passed in the House of Representatives by roll call vote. The vote was held under a suspension of the rules to cut debate short and pass the bill, needing a two-thirds majority. This usually occurs for non-controversial legislation. The totals were 387 Ayes, 25 Nays, 18 Present/Not voting” (Govtrack) I might point out that a full 1/3 of the nays were Democrats and more than half of the Non voting (including Alan Grayson). There’s not a bit of partisanship in this bill.

I wish Obama would have vigorously and enthusiastically supported PACT. It would have been filibustered for sure then lol.

I wish Obama would have vigorously and enthusiastically supported PACT. It would have been filibustered for sure then lol. @Carol: LMAO! You hit the nail squarely on the head!

Looks like the opposition to PACT ACT has gained some steam today, Lets hope this momentum continues and turns the tide on this unconstitutional law : July 02, 2010, 6:53 am An organization of cigarette sellers from the Seneca Nation of Indians has joined the court fight to have a new federal law declared unconstitutional. The Seneca Fair Trade Association filed court papers with U. S. District Judge Richard J. Arcara on Thursday, asking him to strike down the law that bars the U. S. Postal Service from making commercial deliveries of cigarettes. LINK

Reprieve extended to more Seneca cigarette vendors Another 140 Seneca Nation cigarette sellers received a temporary reprieve today. LINK

Well, we know we’ve had a good thing going for a while now, you know, the make a purchase across state lines, over the internet, and get out of paying state taxes on it. It’s been too good to be true and tobacco just happens to be first in line. The lost revenue due to not paying tax has probably been tremendous. Our governments, both federal and local, are scrounging for ways to bring in more, you can rest assured tax collection is coming on all internet purchase before long. It’s quite refreshing to hear opinions from BOTH sides of political thinking on this site and I agree, the cursing is way out of line. I live in a 90% Fox News Zone of the country, people are easily led to believe anything they hear. Reason is NOT the age we live in.

Article states- “Federal officials insist that the PACT Act is constitutional, and organizations that are trying to stop the spread of lung cancer are strongly in favor of it, saying it will prevent teenagers and youngsters from buying cigarettes through the mail”. Um…no, it is to keep us limited to the BTC’s garbage so the Government can resume greed.

It always amazes me how ignorant people can be of some basic things. Like what teenager is buying cigs through the mail? The only time I saw a teen smoking indian cigarettes she told me it was because her mom insisted that she smoke them over another brand. (it was a at work I don’t normaly hang out with teenagers). I also like how the goverment doesn’t have to think of the best way to do things or more accurately is incapable of thinking of the best way to do things. I think it says a lot that instead of making sales tax something easy to collect on the internet (which to me seems like step #1 in collecting taxes). No instead of trying to find a way to make it easier the federal goverment uniformly tries to make it terrible if you don’t pay the tax (which should be step 2 not step one). I guess I’am just saying one if they want to collect taxes fuck them because they should have made it easier. To comply with a basic law shouldn’t be something that is well difficult and confusing. Teens don’t order cigarettes through the mail and even if they did they still could get them from stores or older friends or the creepy pedophile who lives somewhere down the street. Wait I guess I just realized wouldn’t it actualy be better if teens got their cigarettes online. I could go on but then I’d have to cry over the fact that humanity is foolish enough to think it’s beyond monkeys instead of just the statutory primate.

Real cool, Bob! Take a cheap shot at" Planet of the Apes", will ya!!

When we talk about general sales tax on a state by state basis I can see this. But when one state wants to have an exhorbinant taxes levied on particular items then that is the states own problem. They obviously miscalculated the taxes vs competing markets. It is no different than say a town in NJ vs a town in CT having vastly different property taxes for the same couple working in NYC. The couple will choose the best deal. The states want to tax their portion of the free market without realizing they might price themselves out of business on that tax. You tax something enough you end up loosing revenue as people will either refuse to buy it, or opt to buy it through extra legal channels. Bottom line is you can’t legislate behavior and you can’t sin tax your way out of a budget crisis, or into universal sick care. Ken

Frankly, it’s been proven that we’d be better off 98,3% of the time with drunken iguanas on helm.

I’m sick of US government crying foul just because they don’t understand what PROACTIVE means. Reactive reactive REACTIVE!

Article states- “Federal officials insist that the PACT Act is constitutional, and organizations that are trying to stop the spread of lung cancer” Snus and snuff are the best and safest quit smoking products available.( I Have been cigarette free for almost a year) Yet The PACT ACT as written severely limits or makes impossible the availability of these quit smoking products. So the PACT ACT to me Is a written contradiction and especially after you consider the fact that it didn’t include cigars and pipe tobacco into the bill makes it more so of a contradiction.

Snuff Hunter said- “So the PACT ACT to me Is a written contradiction and especially after you consider the fact that didn’t include cigars and pipe tobacco into the bill makes it more so of a contradiction” That’s what I want the Judge to see… Not including cigars and such just might be the saving grace.

I wonder what the official reasoning (if any) is for not including cigars and pipe tobacco. Are teenagers less susceptible to smoke Swisher Sweets than to mail-order one of those gold digger twists?

Crikey, I hope this doesn’t blow up so the US Feds see it as an over sight and include the aforementioned pipe weed. Where I live in Canada, a 50 gr. tin of pipe tobacco is $25. 15g ‘tin’ of Copenhagen is $10. I’d be doubly screwed if they include the pipe tobacco. I may be getting a lot closer to being a tobacco grower. It’s funny. Around here, pot is widely cultivated and considered amongst the best in the world. No tax, no fuss, no muss. But tobacco? You might as well admit to being a pedophile.

Rich people enjoy a fine cigar or pipe. Don’t want to piss off the wealthy.

I guess they do. But then 99% of the cigars sold in the States are Backwwods and the like. Not the kind of stuff you associate with a top hat and a seat in the board of directors. They did something similar in San Francisco when they banned smoking in Golden Gate Park. Everywhere but in the golf course.

Of course. Shoulda figured that one out on my own.

@wildwilliam - I agree with you on pipe weed - I live in the southern edge of the W. Kootenay, and pipe baccy is virtually impossible to come by (and like you allude to, I can walk 50 feet and score a pound of wacky weed no problem and no fuss, and for FAR less than a pound of “evil” tobacco). Basically, getting tobacco from the US and Britain (when Customs doesn’t rape me) is about the only option available. PACT does leave me concerned. Besides “wealth”, I suspect that cigars were excluded because they aren’t normally associated with “filthy smokers”, who always smoke cigarettes (and chew Cope when they can’t suck a cancer stick). I get the impression that the pipe tobacco was completely overlooked, and the two US vendors I asked about pipe tobacco under PACT said exactly that. I am also pretty sure that nasal snuff was lumped in because of the bad habit of calling chewing tobacco “snuff” - again, see the Copenhagen tin. The reality of the tax situation is that it is cigarette smokers and chewers (“snuff” users) who are the overwhelming majority of tobacco users, and that profile would also be mirrored in the majority of tobacco tax dodgers. I read the PACT act and that spoke pretty loud and clear to me. Yes, they added some preamble about “protecting children” but that seems to be the preamble to (and justification for) every law that comes out. Cigar smokers are not only a small minority compared to the two “big” groups, but generally they are paying HUGE money for those cigars, whether online or off. I back up my claims thus: in my small town area, I have personally seen only 2 pipe smokers in the last decade. LOTS of “dirty cigarette smokers” (like me) - thousands. And quite a few young punks spitting brown juice like crazy. And only a handful of cigar smokers. The ones I know personally might smoke a cigar in a MONTH (because they cost $10 or more each - that is quite the luxury). As far as “quit smoking” methods like snus or snuff - I really don’t think any politician or government cares in the slightest about effective methods to quit. Smoking cigarettes is a sign of mental and moral weakness according to the prevailing propaganda, and a social evil, and a great source of revenue. So - vilify the smokers/addicts, and milk them for every dime. Then, because cruelty is fun for politicians and their ilk, tell them if they don’t like it they should just “quit.”

@Geraldo: We’re practically neighbours!

@NelsonPipeClub - you mean you are actually in Nelson?! Cool.