Here’s the latest update on the PACT Act, which seems to be good news, but who knows anymore. I leave it to greater minds than me to figure out. At any rate, it’s currently stalled. Courtesy of NorSnuser at snuson.com: PACT showed up today on the current House floor proceedings. To be read from bottom to top in time order. I quote: "10:57 A.M. - Considered as unfinished business. 10:56 A.M. - UNFINISHED BUSINESS - The Chair announced that the unfinished business was the question of adoption of motions to suspend the rules which were considered earlier and on which further proceedings were postponed. S. 1147: to prevent tobacco smuggling, to ensure the collection of all tobacco taxes, and for other purposes 10:55 A.M. - At the conclusion of debate, the Yeas and Nays were demanded and ordered. Pursuant to the provisions of clause 8, rule XX, the Chair announced that further proceedings on the motion would be postponed. 10:41 A.M. - DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on S. 1147. Considered under suspension of the rules. Mr. Cohen moved to suspend the rules and pass the bill." It is interesting that the suspension of rules failed and PACT is now unfinished business. It is also interesting that they even tried a suspension of rules on this particular bill as this procedure is really only used on non-controversial bills. Apparently PACT is more controversial than Cohen expected and doesn’t have unanimous bipartisan support even though it moved to the House quickly. Here is a link to more information on suspension of rules: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension\\_of\\_the\\_rules\\_in\\_the\\_United\\_States\\_Congress[/url] The way I understand clause 8 rule XX is that it is a way for the Speaker to delay and cluster certain votes. I have no idea when the House will look at PACT again, but for now it is unfinished business.

How many threads do we need on 1 issue?

17

Good point. Please use this as the running PACT discussion, I will close any others.

PACT is on its way to Obama. The House passed it, 387 - 25. Full details here: [url]http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/111/house/2/124[/url] The so-called Coalition to Stop Contraband Tobacco is gleeful: [quote][color=#0099FF]Coalition to Stop Contraband Tobacco Applauds House for Passage of the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009 For Immediate Release: March 17, 2010 Contact Name: Hillary Maxwell Contact Email: media@coalitiontostopcontrabandtobacco.com WASHINGTON – The Coalition to Stop Contraband Tobacco today praised the U.S. House of Representatives for passing S. 1147, the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act of 2009. Sponsored in the House by Congressman Anthony Weiner (D-NY), this legislation will help combat online cigarette sales that have robbed hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenues from the states and that undermine state laws that prevent youth access to tobacco products. The PACT Act will now go to President Obama’s desk for his signature. “In passing the PACT Act, Congress has made a definitive statement about its commitment to help eliminate underage access to tobacco on the Internet, curtail associated illegal activities and capture lost state excise tax revenues,” said Scott Ramminger, AWMA president and CEO and coalition spokesperson. “We applaud the House of Representatives for its action today and thank Congressman Weiner for his leadership in combating contraband tobacco sales.” A broad coalition of more than 180 groups, individuals and other stakeholders worked with House and Senate leaders through the years to pass the PACT Act. The PACT Act closes gaps in current federal laws regulating Internet and other remote sales of cigarettes and smokeless tobacco products. “This bill is a win for law enforcement, retailers, state tax advocates and public health groups,” continued Ramminger. “We hope that President Obama will act swiftly to sign this common sense legislation into law so that we can put an end to the illegal sale of tobacco products,” concluded Ramminger. The Coalition to Stop Contraband Tobacco is a group of individuals, associations, businesses and other organizations that share the goal of enacting legislation that will eliminate underage access to tobacco on the Internet, curtail associated illegal activities and capture lost state excise tax revenues. [url]http://www.coalitiontostopcontrabandtobacco.com/releases/coalition-stop-contraband-tobacco-applauds-house-passage-prevent-all-cigarette-trafficking-[/url] [/color][/quote]

So, they passed the toothless version of the bill with no modifications, then? I suppose that is somewhat good news.

It still has to be signed by the president in order for PACT to become law. Of course I don’t see why he’d refuse to sign it. If Obama does sign it into law, it becomes effective 90 days after he signs. After that, who knows what will happen. I hope that Nicotine Rush and Mr. Snuff are able to survive. My condolences to them.

Mine as well. I know it’s probably none of our business, but I would kind of like to know if Mr. Snuff and Nicotine Rush have spoken to lawyers or anyone reguarding this matter, and if they have some sort of plan in place, or if they’re just going to quietly close their doors. I hope it doesn’t come to that, though. I suppose if worst comes to worse, I’ll just use up what I have and see if I can find a tobacco shop around here that sells snuff, and use whatever they have, or pick the cigs back up, or maby a pipe. I dunno yet. Well, here’s best wishes that all of this works itself out to our favour!

MrSnuff also does wholesale. Everyone should find their local tobacco store and try to hook them up with MrSnuff to be their wholesaler/distributor for snuff. in this way everyone wins: MrSnuff stays in business and prospers, your local business is helped by having a wider selection for you and others, and we customers get to safely and legally get our products and help our respective state businesses. Seriously. Here’s one way to do it that I have discovered so far: 1. Go to MrSnuff’s site, log in, go to Recommend a Store, add your local physical tobacco store. You should get an automated email from another part of MrSnuff that that thanks you and tells you they will contact the store you have just added. 2. Email MrSnuff (Dave) directly just to be sure and let him know you did this and would like them to actually contact the store. 3. Take in a small cardboard box with you that has a variety of the sorts of snuffs MrSnuff sells but the tobacco store you’re at so far does not (take a 25g toque, a can of F&T, one of each of the american scotches, Swisher, Conwood/whatever, US SMokeless, take a couple Dholakias, a Grunt, etc etc) Go to that local physical tobacco store (near the end of a busines day might be best) be sure to get the owner to do this and talk to him/her. and explain what you are doing and that you’ve added them to a snuff selling website (free advertising for them) and that you’d really like the store to do business with Mr Snuff. Set all the snuffs types you have brought on the counter and let the owner see them, open them, smell them etc if he wants, offer to let him write the brand names down (he might, he might not). Be honest and explain why you want him to do this, you’re trying to be law abiding and you have done business with MrSnuff as an online retailer so you can speak to how good he is, but now its time to have a local retailer and MrSnuff does wholessale distribution, explain how this is good for MrSnuff, the store, and you. Tell him you got what you are showing the store owner from MrSnuff’s retailer site, but you’d like to be abel to get it lcoally at his (store owner’s site) in this way. Be sure to tell the store owner that this you have brought in is only a sample of what you own (you have a lot more at home, but only say that if you really do). Tell them you’d prefer to buy in bulk if that in fact be the case) but will buy smaller, etc. Point out why this is good for everyone, everyone wins (MrSnuff, the store, and you the ready-made customer they’ll know they’ll have if they do). 3a. If you know of any other snuffers in your area, tell the shop owner this too. Thank him graciously for even considering it, buy something while there if you can (its a tobacco store after all, maybe buy a pouch of NAS Perique you can take home and grind), and go home. 4. Ask any fellow snuffers you know to actually please go in that same store and at least ask for the snuff products or maybe just speak up and verbalize your collected interest in having a retailer, this retailer, this store to do this 5. Wait for MrSnuff and the store to connect, hope the shop owner to get a whoelsale catalog from MrSnuff, 6. wait and hope some more. This is not just me barking out my butt – I am doing exactly this and I am actually on step 6 right now.

At least Alan Greyson didn’t vote on the damn thing. The DINO-RINO-I have no idea what I am-Suzanne Kosmos voted yes, as did just about all the other FL congressmen.

This is not the end of the world (the beginning of the end- possibly- but not the end as of yet). We will still be able to buy snuff on line. UPS has only said it will not transport cigarettes (not all tobacco). If you live in a state with high taxes you are screwed. For the rest, it seems that we will be making fewer small orders and more once or twice a year bulk orders (due to extra shipping cost- depending on just how much that turns out to be). I think the big thing will be for each online shop to carry as much variety as they can, since one stop shopping will be more of a necessity. Both Tom and David already do a pretty good job of this so there is not much for them to do (a little but not much). On average I look for my snuff and snus bill to increase some 20% over last year. A pain but doable. Regardless we will be able to get snuff (and for most of us without too much extra hassle). However, we will just have to wait and see.

I think you are right, Snifs. This will be a nuisance but not the end of our hobby. We shall find a workaround.

After reading more, it seems this is all about the US government’s war with the Seneca Indian Nation, and we are in the crossfires.

tom502 is totally right. The snuf and the snus communities are collateral damage in an unjust war in the first place.

As I understand this, We will still be able to order snuff online, however, we will have to pay taxes on it and it will not be shipped via USPS. It seems to be a logistics, licensing, and paperwork nightmare for the retailers. Anybody know where this new tax money will be appropriated? Will it go to cancer research or private jets? I don’t mind paying taxes, but, i do mind being taxed without knowing what happens to it. Even with a price increase due to new taxes, my snuff habit/hobby will still be significantly cheaper than my previous smoking habit. As long as I can acquire my vice, I’ll be ok, though it is an infringement on my personal civil liberties. SNUFF ON!

I think it’s only sales taxes based on whatever state you order from.

Texas tobacco taxes on smokeless tobacco are supposedly 40% of the manufactering cost. I just spoke with a wholesaler in Austin who told me that that amounts to either $1.04 or $1.40 per ounce for nasal snuff (we didn’t have a great phone connection, but I think it was the lower amount), and that–at least for Texas residents–WoS, F&T, McChrystals, and Gawith Hogarth would be readily available from him and his affiliate shops for anyone in Texas who was willing to pay the tax, along with state sales tax. Their retail prices are the same as the online retailers (actually they ARE online retailers at present, but their site is geared toward pipe smokers). We then bitched about Dallas tobacco shops, since his main business is Gawith Pipe tobacco, and there is one tobacco baron in Dallas who has geared his chain of stores mainly toward the $20 cigar crowd, to the detriment of Pipe Smokers, the RYO/MYO community, and nasal snuff users, which he says are the smallest of the lot. The taxes are just state tax revenues, and go to finance some useful programs and some extremely not so useful programs. I would prefer to continue to deal with Mr. Snuff and Nicotinerush, however, and based on what this person said, Texas is not a difficult a state to do business with. States like New York, Oregon and California are a different story, supposedly. It still remains to be seen whether our favorite domestic sources will want to incur the costs of compliance with the different laws of each state.

seems to me there are a whole lot of exemptions. this bill seems to be compose mostly of fluff. the USPS can deliver if the mailer and recipient fall under certain criteria. Sec. 3, Subsection 1716E, part B, subpart 4, I don’t know, Im not a legislator, thank god, but it seems to me they are simply trying to make money with this and nothing else.

why doesn’t it seem anyone is noticing or taking up on my idea? If you’re really concerned for MrSnuff et al … and wouldn’t you like to have a physical store near you that can provide? I mean if we can talk about packaging snuff by wrapping it in big tobacco leaves (or whatever!) so counts as a cigar… why not my idea? Afterall its a pretty realistic response that would benefit and give an extra safeguard to the oneine shops we already know and love so we can be assured they do stay in business (and indirectly still give them your business) and help a business that’s local to you. It really wasn’t that big of a deal to take a small cardboard box (one that was actually what a smaller online order came in) and go down ther and do this? Am I the only one here ‘crazy’ enough to not really care if I take a little risk of looking a little foolish or having a store owner thinking I’m nuts or whatever (and then finding this to be actually pretty easy and yes, I’ll admit I think some luck was involved) seems to be on its way to working? The worst you’ll do is annoy the store owner who could tell you he’s not interested, get an answer of ‘no’ – but you can guarentee the answer is ‘no’ if you never even ask! I don’t know… some of you married men or ones with girlfriends, if its a male shopkeep then send the ladies in to do the talking then (I’m nothing to look at really but still, maybe I had just a little bit of the female factor or the "I couldn’t scare a flea off a dog’ very non-threatening factor I have was involved… you know, the same ones that lets me sometimes get away with occasionally walking up to a scary looking ‘gansta’ looking guy that ‘my gut’ says this will be okay to do with and stunning them by acting like I don’t notice he’s as scary as he is, etc asking directions or just saying hello, etc and getting a momentary ‘doubletake’ before a relieved exhale and telling me what I’m asking etc, maybe its like that I don’t know) but one way or another, try it!

@LHB: Here is an expanded chart showing current and future smokeless tobacco tax rates for the state of Texas: [url]http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/cig\\_tob/tob\\_rates\\_other.html[/url] As explained here, [url]http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/cig\\_tob/faqcig.html[/url], an individual can of snuff weighing 1.2 ounces or less is currently taxed at $1.32. This tax will be incrementally increased to $1.46 up to September 2013. The main thing to keep in mind is that, tax-wise, there is no distinction between one gram and 1.2 ounces. You’re throwing money out the window if you buy tiny quantities of snuff. One gram (like a Toque bullet) and a 1.2 ounce tin (such as a 1.15 ounce container of W.E. Garrett) are both taxed at $1.32. In other words, buying snuff in quantities of less than 34 grams is not cost effective (1.2 ounces = 34.019 grams). If you buy three 10g tins, a $1.32 tax is levied on each individual tin. If you buy instead a single 34g container, you are taxed $1.32 only once. For that matter, if you bought 34 1g Toque bullets, your combined tax bill will be a whopping $44.88. I looked this up and confirmed my suspicion that 1.2 ounces is the average weight of a can of moist snuff. The compilers of the tax table apparently didn’t imagine (or care) that there are other forms of smokeless tobacco that are commonly sold in quantities much smaller than 34g per unit.

@whistlrr: Perhaps some of us have other things to do? Families, jobs, kids, school. Who has time to drive around to every tobacco shop in town?

who asked anyone to 'drive to every tobacco store in town"? I said pick ONE apparently while having families jobs, kids, school, etc people have time to stop into gas stations, restaurants, whatever else (including typing on here and looking up and reading volumes about the PACT act and whatever else, writing letters to gov’t, windy wannabe-Steinbeck English 101 reviews, etc etc ) so whats maybe 15 minutes to dedicate in a real way, to a real solution?

So it only takes 15 minutes to do all of that you suggest? Hold on… Let me get back to my “windy-wannabe-Steinbeck-English 101 Review”

yeah, that’s exactly what I suggest. I’m talking about going into a store while its open, I’m not talking about tying them up for half a day, and the rest of it is online stuff, adding a store to his recommended stores, talking to MrSnuff (and if available to the store owner) by email, etc. scooping up a handful of your favorite snuffs in their original containers and going down to have a few minutes talk with the store owner (knowing he’s going to have other customers and won’t want to spend half a day with you either). In all the time it takes is less than I see some dedicating strictly to complaining on this forum (I do my share of complaining too, at sometimes a rate of burst typing that can peak around 150 wpm and I know most people can’t type that fast – but I’m also trying to understand what the deal is what its all about and finding and then doing solutions to counter it). so again, yes, its exactly what I’m suggesting.

Ok.

I think “IF” buying online tobacco was in fact banned, and it hasn’t been, then having local stores order what you want from a wholesaler is a great idea. I would think they’d be ok with it, even if you paid in advance for what you wanted. But that day has not come yet. Personally, I have enough snuff to last my lifetime. And while I don’t have much optimism of our government, I still feel fairly optimistic that we will still be able to order our snuff and snus.

tom502, banned or not, most people agree this situation is going to put an undeniable strain on the online storekeepers Some are worried that this may simply drive them out of business… what good is buying online if there’s nobody there to buy from? This gives you two options… your local store or the online, and further ensures that online store will still be there for you to order from (should you choose that option). EDITED to add – consider the idea that waiting until say, MrSnuff is no longer there at all to do anything (including Wholesale) any more is not a good time to wait to try this. I’d rather do what we can to secure their continued presence now, while they are still there and while we can.

There is a store in town I can buy a few types of snuff, not my favorites, but I could survive. The problem is the manager of that store is a (insert any expletive). I would have to be desperate to give him any trade. Not saying I wouldn’t if I had to.

@Nach, find the owner (not the manager).

@whistlrr: I’m happy for you if you’re able to convince a shop to order from Mr. Snuff. Unfortunately, for a lot of us, it is a waste of time trying to convince them to carry nasal snuff. I have spent much more than 15 minutes attempting to persuade at least three local smoke shops to get snuff, but they just don’t want to know. Only one of those shops carries W.E. Garrett and Honest, and they can’t even fathom that this or any other tobacco can be used nasally. To be fair, I am certain that I would be the only person in town who would buy nasal snuff. They really do not know what it is, nor do they feel it is worth their while to carry it. I can’t say that I blame them, really. With every other form of tobacco they stock, company sales reps are offering incentives for floor space and the like. There are no nasal snuff reps persuading them that it is in their interest to carry the product. Even the scotch snuffs are considered bastard stepchildren, and are never promoted by the companies that manufacture them. I quite enjoy nasal snuff, but, honestly, I am not willing to jump through so many hoops and splash out for more and more exorbitant taxes in order to get it. If it is no longer fun and enjoyable; if the entire process of obtaining it is going to be tedious and too expensive, then forget it. I use nasal snuff because I find it relaxing and enjoyable; not because I’m a hopeless addict willing to crawl through the sewer in order to get my hands on it at any price. As it currently stands, I have quite a lot of snuff – more than enough to last me for several years. However, personal stockpiles and the like has never been the point of my PACT information threads. I am much more disturbed by the oppressive nature of such legislation and what it portends. Regardless, for those worried about having a steady supply, Mr. Snuff is currently offering a 20% Wilsons/F&T/McChrystal’s bulk discount. Those concerned ought to take advantage of this now. Rest assured that snuff is never going to be this affordable again. I am sure that those with foresight stocked up on heroin in 1914 before the Harrison Act was passed; just as people stocked up on alcohol before January 16, 1920. I don’t believe that snuff is going to be impossible to get, but it is not going to be as cheap or as easy to obtain as it is right now. I say get it now while the getting is good.

kjoerup, I still say ‘BE the nasal snuff rep" then… one that’s really authentic when they see you coming through the door because you’re not getting paid to do it, because you’re for real in your motivations… did you offer the stores a specific wholesaler? I’m sorry your efforts didn’t pay off, but on the other hand I’m not sure you went at it quite like I have (or that it’d make a difference, but it might we don’t know). I already live where mail ordering it is banned outright with no viable means to pay the taxes and oblige the law as it stands , so I have an additional motivator. I have already spent all the money I can right now on stockpiling and then some, this is going to be a really tight remainder of the month and my credit card has a couple hundred on it. I live on less than $850 a month (please don’t give me the ‘sucks to be you’ for being poor or whatever thing, but reality is we’re not all made of money) and so, we do the best we can doing the best I can and while I wait for having more money to stock up, is doing this, what I have done, and I really wish you guys wouldn’t just ignore or dismiss or even try to discourage this sort of thing. Part of the reason I decided to quit smoking and go to these other forms of tobacco/nicotine administering, is cost. I don’t have endless dollars to be shelling out, for anything I’m also not real big on the idea of ending up in Jackson State Prison because some state trooper and officials on a mission decided I’m ‘it’ or an example but I have a few minutes to spare which I can use honestly and effectively in a way that helps all involved (yes that would include you too if you retail from MrSnuff and if he is able to wholesale somewhere accessible to me, that’‘s helping him stay in business, for you) but my one effort, my one store if I can get this store owner to do it, will not be enough (and I’m already thinking if he declines of a possibility of a Plan B, finding out really what it might mean and talking about "special ordering’ as an idea then, would he order just for me and would MrSnuff go for that as well, etc if necessary I’ll have to find out, hopefully should know before too long if that will be the case or not). This needs a concerted effort and I’m just kind of surprised and dismayed at the fairly lackluster response this seems to be getting here. I see every reason to at least try, and no good reasons not to. Either snuffing matters to you enough or it doesn’t, period. It matters to me. Also, you guys grumble about snuff being an unknown acitivity… well its not going to get more known just sitting on a website image, on the physical shelves would certainly help.

I don’t doubt that not having your favorite snuff available is scary but tobacco is one of those things that is in abundance in some form or another. As long as it isn’t cased in molasses, I will just make my own snuff. I was pretty worried about this PACT thing too but its largely out of our control. Hell, Brazilians, some of the craftiest people I know, don’t have an abundance of snuff companies or money. Nonetheless, they can get snuff. Before marijuana was medicinally available I believe everyone had to pick out stems and seeds and make do. No such thing as “Train Wreck” or “Strawberry Cough”. They still enjoyed the hell out of it. I think tobacconists are just about as crabby as bus drivers, comes with the territory. They get hassled by the government too. I try asking them to carry snus or snuff and guess what answer I get? If I’m the only one byin’ it, it ain’t happenin’ pal. I sure am glad I tend to use scotch more than anything else. Thats all I can find anyway, at 6 bucks a tin mind you. Everyone is having to do with less in all kinds of ways. We just have to find away around it. Isn’t that what people do? But I don’t think beating up on folks here is the best way around it.

I’ll trade your 6 dollar scotches for my 4 dollar ozonas that i can get locally…and thats the only thing i can get that resembles snuff in my parts… Which brings me to another point, for some it would be impossible to convince their local “tobacconist” to carry different stuff, including snuff, because this “tobacconist” is really owned by a corporation, and said store only sells what the company tells them to sell, as in my case.

Yes. There is absolutely no reason to panic. If worse comes to worst you can always buy leaves or pipe tobacco and grind your own snuff. Essential oils will never be outlawed. And maybe now some of you will stop laughing at my tomato leaf snuff making activities from last year. Ha!

Like I said when this nonsense began…I’m going to use snuff whether those politicians like it or not…I’ll just grind my own (and take more Poschl’s, I guess) Ideally, though, our friends Dave and Tom will continue to do business…I care about seeing them be successful!

yes, of course, do without, buy pipe tobacco and grind it up, etc and complain (or talk about how you’ll just tough it out) that you can’t get your favorite snuffs, etc and call it ‘panicking’ to do anything else muuch better than a simple inquiry and taking a very few active steps to better the situation for yourselves, your wholesalers and local area shops, yes that’s muuuuch better Maybe I’ll just stop now and wait the 3+ months or so it takes for somebody more respected than me or whatever at the 11th hour (if we 're lucky and its not long after) to get a ‘a big lightbulb idea’ that 'hey why don’t we/we shoulda just talk(ed) to our local retailers about getting wholesale in for us…" [insert a sigh here]

If anyone has any pre-Harrison Act Bayer Heroin they’ve been holding onto, I’ll trade you some of my pre-PACT Act Irish High Toast No. 22 for it.

@whistlrr: I like your idea, and it would work for some, (obviously working for you!) but not so much for others. For me, it would never work, as there is no “owner” hanging out at the store…he’s off wherever he lives managing his chain of stores, focusing more on profit than the love of tobacco or what have you. Others live in areas where the demand is so low, that proprietors would actually be unwise to order snuff, as only one or two people would be purchasing the items in question. If I had an independently owned tobacconist in my area, I would have tried this, pact or not…trying to convince my “tobacconist” to get in more snuff would be similar to trying to get walmart to carry more, on a smaller scale of course, the problem being that the manager has little control over what is in stock/how much it costs, etc. These threads are really getting off on tangents…perhaps because emotions are running crazy.

it may turn out that this one doesn’t want to make proper orders where I am either, I don’t know yet. Right now we’re at the stage where he’s agreed to take the wholesaler catalog – and he may still decide after seeing it not to get things to stock but here’s the thing: he never would gotten to having the catalog or knowing who to contact (in this case the desired MrSnuff to help keep him afloat and available to all) and even if he decides not to stock things from this wholesale list – I might be able to ask him to special order from it just for me then – which would still be hugely helpful to me, the store, and MrSnuff (and indirectly others who use MrSnuff if it helps him keep afloat – which is why I’m also asking others to at least try, at least consider this) even if they don’t stock and I haven’t gotten that far (I’m hoping mine will but IF he does not) – don’t forget the idea of special order (getting specific items to the local store just special for lil ol me then) and if I find that’s what we have to do here, I will report as I learn about that too. I’m just asking people to please consider this, at least consider trying because at ANY stage of any effort its all good and the reason I care whether others try or not is because it also will impact me if MrSnuff is able to stay afloat or not, do you see? I’m no business guru or anything, but even I can clearly see and understand how this works, why its good and why the more taking wholesale from MrSnuff the better it is, for all. EDITD to add – there’s still a lot of places in this process this could just go really wrong, maybe the local store will decide to charge so excessively that I can’t do it, I don’t know… but at least I am trying and it seems like such a sensible thing to do and so little effort in contrast to so much just… saying on and on how we can’t get things locally, places have one thing we’ll have to go without etc etc… and that may well be true… but what skin is of off people’s noses to give it serious consideration and to at least try? If you want more variety locally, ask yourselves, just how do you expect it to change so you can, what has to happen in order for it to happen? and don’t gimme something about the politicians or demand because it has to start with somebody, why not you? I’m just seeing all kinds of naysaying “oh that’ll never work” without even trying it or considering trying it and a lot of focusing instead on a lot of much less unabtainable notions, a lot of lets just let things be done to us without interacting when really put to and faced with a simple face to face little local involvement here. I’m not asking you to run for mayor or something here. of all the options and suggestions out there this is the most realistic one and one where we as consumers actually have the best odds, a little control, a hand involved, other than just… writing our goverment, complaining, hoping and fearing (and stocking up is great sure but its like the adage about a fish vs fishing… wouldn’t you rather or at least in addition, secure a steady supply then just stockpile until it runs out?)

Another thought… my local tobacco guy and I had a long discussion. He’s willing to order anything I want with a markup and I pay shipping and sales taxes. Under PACT dealers can still use USPS.That’s worst case scenario. Right now it looks like we can still get pretty much anything if we pay UPS shipping prices. The downside is I won’t pay to order from Toque directly. AS long as Tom and Dave are in business it won’t be much of a burden. I hate paying taxes like most people, but I hate being without snuff more. Just to give you all an idea of UPS charges, I ordered 8 cans of lös snus from Northerner this week. $7 USPS. $30 UPS. 8 cans from the US based Getsnus? $4.95 shipping. In Ohio our tobacco tax is 17% of the wholesale price.

“As long as Tom and Dave are in business”… and when thy no longer are because they can’t handle the state by state and insane regulations at being just retailer sellers (when they could be far more secure and continue to run as wholesalers)… then what? (because that is part of my point here too)

oh snuff is going to have a reniasance anyways.

They can handle it. I’am sure they are already preparing for it.

well I don’t have a lot of vices left, used to be smoking and caffeine and sometimes going overbord with the computer game purchases, but thats about it, now its snuff and sometimes tea or cola or coffee (and I’m all purchased up but for maybe one sims3 addon and the rest are now free computer games like Project entropia) and as I sit here ‘in my little world’ at my computer and caffiene, I really like my snuff, and whats more, I really like Dave, that’s a person out there in the ether even if I’ve never met him face to face, that’s a real flesh and blood guy (and his wife and others), and its just amazing to me that so many people are all ‘yeah hail Dave and Tom, you’re so good to us’ but at the very real prospect of what he does for us, his business and livelihood in the process going down, we’re mostly all just ‘yeah that’d be a real shame, jee I hope that doesn’t happen’ but quite eerily… passive and okay with that I guess… well I’m not okay with that. I know that there’s a person out there and his world is just as important to him and is as important as mine. People give all kinds of lip service about ‘great guy, yeah sure I’d do anything for him’… well, would you? I’m asking. and I’m telling you if Obama signs this thing 90 days from that isn’t very long in the scheme of things. I’m not even supposed to be buying from him at all. we can already see that one entire state already is putting both Dave and the occupants of this state at risk by just sapping off of him directly as a retailer. and as for it being an ‘inconvenience’ to busy family men and working world people? I didn’t think of this until hours after I replied, but I have to type what I say and I have to have somebody drive me out there so yes, it took me a little longer and a little more work, at very least in a slightly different way than it would you family/working men (and no I’m not asking for a cookie or a gold star or whatever so nobody needs to even try to go down that nasty road) I’m just stating matter-of-factly here that its not that big a deal to just go inform people that somethings out here, who it is, etc etc @bob, its a lot more likely to have its renaissance if people know about it and its accessible to them. you guys might also think about the fact that if snufftakers are already a tiny minority of a minority (non smoking tobacco use) then we’re a minority of a minority of a minority when we’re just ‘online ordering snuff takers’ too.

Here’s a nice video on the PACT Act that talks strictly about the facts. PACT ACT INFO

@ MrSnuffy That video was made by the guy who owns Clubsnus before the Act was passed by the House. I think he’s trying to reassure his customers that he plans on staying in business so they don’t go back to smoking or dipping. The point of my post earlier in the day was to suggest that anyone who lives in Texas has a source even if the Act passes in it’s most rigid form; there is a retailer in Austin who stocks a great supply of the major brands, currently ships anywhere, but plans on restricting himself to shipping in Texas if the Act passes in its current form. Do a google search for your state, and you might be surprised. In Texas, even if worse came to worst, you don’t have to convince a tobacco shop to carry what you want; you just have to convince somebody with a tobacco retailers license to order stuff for you from a licensed wholesaler. The guy who runs the little Bodega across the street from me would be happy to order from Mr. Snuff if he’s licensed in Texas if I paid him in advance. As for kjoerup’s suggestion, I’m not sure I got the point. I’ve never bought snuff in less than 25 gram tins unless that was all that was available, like Bernard’s. The economics of a local tobacco store carrying a reasonable selection of snuff without prepayment is impossible. Notice how few online retailers there are, even relative to online retailers of Swedish Snus. I really hope those online snuff retailers stay in business, but I doubt if their motivation is humanitarian; if they can’t make a profit, they’ll go on to doing something else. I think I’ve done my part during the last three months to help their profitability along, at least that’s what my credit card bills tell me. Unfortunately, I used up all my pre-Harrison Act Bayer Heroin on Christmas Eve, but they tell me “Use all you want; we’ll make more,” although in my area only the generic is currently available ; )

I’m just saying that in Texas one will get screwed by the tax –- at $1.32 a pop –- if you buy any small tins. A 10g container is taxed at the same rate as a 34g (1.2 ounce) container. I wasn’t aware of that until your post inspired me to look up the actual tax rates for smokeless tobacco in Texas. To inject somewhat of an optimistic note into all this, remember last year when the RYO smokers were convinced that SCHIP was going to be the end of the world? Clever ways around that were discovered immediately. Namely, “pipe tobacco.” Whatever happens, enterprising solutions will be found. I’ve also read the UPS shipping policy and noted with interest that it specifically states “cigarettes.” Of course they could revise this at any time, but the PACT bogeyman is focused 100% on the evil cancer sticks. Do you really think that the ATF is rubbing their hands over the prospect of holding up to the news cameras some poor fool’s seized tins of Hedges and Toque Peppermint while they solemnly announce that they have saved yet another generation of children from having a runny nose? My “powdered tobacco” cigar idea isn’t sounding so silly now, don’t you think? PACT is not yet law, and if/when it becomes law, I don’t believe anyone really knows what will transpire. We’ll have to wait and see. Meanwhile, my only motivation for participating in these threads is to report the current facts in a calm and rational manner. Let’s set aside the hyperbole and doomsday scenarios for another thread, OK? Those distractions are not helping us to follow the daily developments of this legislation.

@ kjoerup Indeed. I thought I read somewhere anyway that most early snuff was purchased in the form of “Carottes” which were like tobacco twists, and then grinded at home by the user. People are never so creative as when figuring out ways to circumvent regulations that keep them from making or spending money anyway. And of course, it’s important to remember that even the name of the Act specifically refers to “Cigarettes.” We’re just potential collateral damage; I mean, how many online snuff retailers are there in the US? Basically two. Over at RYO revolution, they have a list of “Top 10” mail order stores, and then a bunch that get “honorable mentions.” And that doesn’t even touch on the REGULAR online cigarette market. To look on the bright side, which I’m not inclined often to do, snuff users are probably positioned better than any other tobacco users to weather this storm of intense regulation and taxation, simply because it’s such an eccentric hobby that uses such small amounts of tobacco.

I would like to purchase pre-ground carottes. Perhaps we can call them pre-rasped carottes; or simply rappees.

@ Xander: Patience, I am working on it, but it takes at least half a year to get the Karotten fermented and the production is slow. St. Omer will come! Jaap Bes.

Wow! Thanks for the news, Jaap. That will teach me to make bad jokes!

whistlrr, none of us knows the future. I am a bit offended that you assume I don’t have a case of the chapped butt because of what has been done and may yet happen to our friends Dave and Tom, and Roderick also to a lesser extent. Too bad my Senator and Representative, who both voted for this abomination , don’t give a damn what I think or about Tom or Dave. I honestly hope their businesses survive. I would feel a bit better if they would come here and say they are working on it, or looking into it or something. They’ve been strangely quiet on this whole issue so far.Which concerns me, greatly.

If Tom and Dave plan on staying in business, their main concern would probably be figuring out the legal and economic requirements for doing so, and then taking measures to fill them. I would imagine that they are probably even more angry and depressed than some of us are; their livelihoods are at stake, and I know I wouldn’t want to change my line of work at this late date.

I’m curious as to why neither has said anything concerning the issue.

To add my $.02 I’ve read and re-read both versions, House and Senate, of the current PACT act several times over the past several months. While I’m in no way well versed in legal speak, I keep coming up with an interpretation very similar to what Jonothon espouses in his youtube piece. We should be able to continue to purchase snus and snuff, albeit at a higher cost. The higher cost in part due to the payment of taxes that technically we should have been paying all along. Seems that the payment of taxes is un-patriotic but that’s another thread. My thanks go out to ermtony and all the others for their insights on long term storage. I have a few “almost” bulk orders out now and will place a few more actual bulk orders in the near future as I better determine what I may want on hand to tide me over for the next few years. These orders will be done in a sense of American Patriotism as they will be concluded prior to the assessment of taxes.

Although UPS and FedEx have said they will not deliver tobacco, I wonder if they will actually do it considering there is no real way to enforce this bill.

@ cstokes4 Where did you hear that FedEx and UPS will not deliver tobacco? They currently do, I can guarantee that, along with prescription drugs, etc., etc., Virtually no online tobacco retailers of tobacco in a form have said anything publicly about this legislation, nor would I expect them to do so.

Alright lets try this – Everybody just go to MrSnuff’s website, log in and add your Recommended Store (one local to you who sells currently sells any snuff at all) to his Store Locator. Just do that at very least, and see what happens from there Now that single solitary request can’t possibly be too difficult to accomplish, can it?

They agreed to not mail tobacco in tandem with PACT.

I’ve read also, that although they are not required to, private shippers including DHL, FedEx, and UPS are going to “comply” with the PACT act voluntarily, as cstokes4 says. Its some where on the forum in the older pact threads. @whistlrr, I’ve just added my local store, despite being part of a large chain. Edit, a curious note: their corporate website says that they also carry some snuffs besides the ones they sell here (Gletscherprise, the Ozona line, and Gawith Apricot) W.E. Garret (and I knew this because the store in North Platte had a few when I visited), Lotzbeck, Packards Club, Rooster (though they don’t specify if this is the dip or the dry snuff we know) Starr (the same as Rooster…is this chew or the snuff? no one knows!) Maybe I’ll go talk to 'em and see what they can do, after all…though I would rather continue to support Dave and Tom.

matsnuffs if we get really lucky and they start to take wholesale from Dave and Tom you WOULD be supporting them

n/t

Ah yes, it’s passed in typical government fashion for the nature of such a bill that buggers the little man: with bi-partisan support. No such luck though for a real health care bill that might dip into the bottom line of the insurance companies and actually help vast amounts of the American people. What a lovely time and land we live in.

It is indeed the most foolish piece of legislation since Prohibition. PACT sets quite a dangerous precedent, as it has sweeping implications that go far beyond the mere issue of tobacco. In essence, PACT upsets entirely the historical separation of federal and state tax matters. To wit, PACT gives the federal government unprecedented power in enforcing (and paying for) individual state tax collection. Traditionally and legally it has always been each state government’s responsibility to collect its state taxes and enforce its own state tax laws. This has never been a matter for the federal courts, but with PACT, it can and will be.

@ kjoerup Earlier, you said the act had no teeth, was unenforcable and therefore meaningless, having noticed that Sec. 4 was struck from the Bill. I interpreted that revision as having solely to do with the MSA, and therefore as making no difference to snuff or snus takers. So what made you change your opinion since you started the “Parsing the Senate Revisions…” thread? @ Roderick How is it that you are able to process credit card payments, but other shippers in the UK won’t deal with US customers because they say credit card processors refuse to process the payments?

I think I sorta see what Kjoerup is saying (but knowing our already short post exchanges I’m sure s/he will be along to ‘correct’ me shortly): I think its about the idea of the federal government taking over something that’s supposed to be done by the states and why that’s extra scary we’re states for a reason, and the federal government is supposed to work for the states and answer to the states, not the other way around I mean, afterall, our country’s very name is “The United States of America” Each state has its own whole separate governments that we vote in etc (state governors, state legistature, whole separate little government entities per state just to run each state and make each state’s rules) Some people are already getting really nervous about the idea of an already busybody federal government getting even still more central power and control, leaving the states’ each having even less (maybe somebody else who’s more wordy and wise than I am can elaborate on just why this is a bad thing).

Before the Civil War it was common to hear the phrase “these are the United States.” After the war, and to this day, one hears “This is the United States”. We have long ceased to be a true federation. Living where I do, with 3 other states within a 15 minute drive, state boundries become rather irrelavant to practical life, but a nuisance to almost every civic effort. In short, their boundries are quaint and largely outdated. Most boundries were created before there were significant populations in the areas, and are largely arbitrary.

There seems to be a lot of unfounded rumors about UPS not delivering tobacco products when the PACT act kicks in, but I have yet to see a credible source for this. The guy from Clubsnus is on the mark when he says he will continue to sell snus on-line. UPS and other curriers do not deliver cigarettes, and haven’t for some time, but they do delivery all types of smokeless, and from every source I can find will continue to do so. By complying with the PACT act all they are saying is that they will get age verification on delivery, as the bill requires. UPS already has this in place for other products. Nothing new there for them. There is a $4.00 charge for it.

@Xander: Could you explain the Civil War to me like I’m 3? It makes it easier to understand.

:-P~ Sorry for dragging the thread off topic.

I received a scary email from SnusCentral indicating they are under attack. This isn’t entirely on topic but its related enough and I don’t know where else to put this I will see if I can repost at least the main point of it first paragraph anyway, of that email here Topic: SnusCENTRAL Targeted by FDA‏ “SnusCENTRAL Under Attack! Our accessories website, SnusGEAR.com, has been instructed by FDA to remove all products containing snus manufacturers name, logo, can graphics, or images. SnusGEAR.com is the Exclusive Distributor of V2 Tobacco products including Thunder, Offroad, and Fellinni. All products including shirts, caps, mouse pads, travel mugs and more are covered in the ban which is effective June 2010. Until then, we will valiantly keep all branded products available and may just add some more! If you wish to own a piece of snus and tobacco history, visit SnusGEAR while you still can.”

In case you didn’t know, the FDA is over all tobacco products.

Some of that stuff is pretty stupid looking. Those hats are terrible.

So, the FDA is cracking down on teeshirts and stuff with logos for tobacco products on them as well? I went to the mall today, and passed a whole rack of tshirts about pot. Here’s what I’ve gotten from this: T-shirts about illegal substances=ok Tobacco T-shirts= BIG GIANT NO-NO AMERICA

Nothing illegal about a shirt with a big giant tobacco leaf on it, just as long as its not advertising.

As Roderick has pointed out in this forum numerous times, tobacco marketing techniques like company logos on clothing etc. can land a tobacco manufacterer or distributor in jail in the EU. He expressed incredulity that he could do this in the U.S., but not any more. I’m not saying I approve of the FDA’s actions–I’ve always thought they were one of the most corrupt and ineffective government agencies–but what they’re doing with respect to tobacco marketing is nothing new. I do think it’s odd that they’re going after small fry like SnusCentral. I also wonder what they would do if someone printed up their own t-shirts that said something like “I’m a Marlboro Man.”

Isnt the No advertising thing anti-first amendment?

You are free to make a t-shirt or hat with any logo or wording you wish. A corporation does not.

I feel like making T-shirts that have a big tobacco leaf and say “Tobacco. It’s the new weed.”

I’m looking at my snuff cans and at the three main snuffsites I look at (MrSnuff, NicotineRush and Toque) and even though I only have an old dot matrix printer (nowhere in the league for shirt making) I am just pondering what I think would make a good t-shirt etc thing… MrSnuff… well that’d be prone to grave misinterpretation (people around here would probably think of the murder type of ‘snuff’ plus I’m the wrong gender to wear anything with “Mr” on it and altering it to “Mrs” might be mistook as an invite to really get myself raped and murdered or something, you never know, and I’m not about to find out) NicotineRush… well no offense meant (and no reflection meant on it as a store either) but that looks too gawdy and the first thing that’d make me think of are those little bottles of sniffing fluid ("poppers’ or whatever they’re called, has an effect similar to sniffing gasoline fumes and are little bottles that people used to be able to buy at a weird little local sort of sex shop) Toque ? Well likely people around here would think that’s either about pot (a ‘re-spelled’ “Toke”), or about a Canadian knit-hat, a “Tuque” (I just don’t live far enough away from Canada for that mistake not to be made, sorry) "Scotch’ rules out a good portion of American snuffs (even I at very first on entering the snuff world thought initially that might mean they were scotch flavored, as in the alcohol named ‘scotch’) but one has potential and would go really nice on a white shirt, and that’s the scrawl that’s on the front of my little F&T canister down to and including the Dukes of Sussex etc line, but not the stupid warning below that (granted, likely nobody would even read it, I have just barely read it on my cat myself just because its hard to see with all the funny little fonts) but that might work as a nice shirt print, and at least without much confusion.

Now we know not to wear a MrSnuff t-shirt, otherwise you might get raped. And don’t wear a NicotineRush t-shirt, because someone will think you are a sexual deviant that hangs out in adult video stores.

"If number 5. is correct then I think whoever mentioned the following is onto a winner: get a local tobacco store to place your order through www.wholesalesnuff.com. They will have to register and send their tobacco license and EIN. Having done that I would be happy to send orders for individuals directly to them. They are responsible for taxes for most states. The would mark up the product like usual and sell to you. It is up to you guys/ladies to negotiate that part. In return I would give great prominence to their store on m y website to encourage other snuffers in teh same area to go place an order. it is win/win as far as I can see. they have a sale they would not otherwise have had for no effort. In fact to make it easier you could even place the order and have me ship it directly to them, to cut down on the hassle for them rooting through 900 odd products. You then just go pick it up when tracking says it has arrived. All you need then is permission to have it shipped to them and pay them the tax and a few bucks for the privilege (so to speak). I am very interested on your take on all this. Worst case MrSnuff will relocate to Turks and Caicos. That actually doesn’t sound so bad! Thanks for any input." Dave Thank you Dave, once again, seriously you rock (and I hope people listen) [edited out other comments I had here]

Dave, What about UPS and FedEx?

Actually, I think Carol came up with the idea of using local shops as “pick up points” for snuff orders about 6 months ago. Lots of good stuff in reading old threads.

Yep, I remember that one. And I believe that her retailer said they would do it no problem. Good for her.

Mr. Snuff@ thanks for sharing your input, my thoughts have been with you! I lost my business of Ten years, a year and a half ago, lots of hard work went into it. I have been wondering what hoops were going to have to be jumped through to remain viable. My heartfelt support for you and Tom, although you really should not encourage whistler any more than you have too, now that he finds out he was right we will never hear the end of it! I just want you to know that what little money I have had to spend, I spent with you guys this year, and it made for a fun year after all!

How long is our (US customers) window if/when signed by Prez?

I think 90 days.

@Roderick: Neither the Jenkins Act (which only applied to cigarettes) and PACT (which is an extension of the Jenkins Act) say anything about foreign shipments. Jenkins is specifically concerned with interstate commerce, and PACT appears to be as well. I wonder where the US embassy is getting their information about requiring packages to state “SMOKELESS TOBACCO: FEDERAL LAW REQUIRES THE PAYMENT OF ALL APPLICABLE EXCISE TAXES, AND COMPLIANCE WITH APPLICABLE LICENSING AND TAX-STAMPING OBLIGATIONS”? I’m not saying that they are wrong, but I have not come across this anywhere. In theory, such a statement has always applied to foreign tobacco shipments, PACT or no. Regardless, it appears to be saying that the remittance of all appropriate taxes is the responsibility of the recipient, as has always been the case. As a foreign company, it is not your responsibility to collect taxes and report to the US federal and state governments, and they have no power to compel you to do so. If your packages manage to get through the US mail, then it is business as usual for you. Taxes are the responsibility of the US recipient, not you. Since you do not have to report your shipments to the US and state tax authorities, I don’t see how they can even be aware of whom they can even go after for tax collection. But then if all foreign tobacco USPS shipments are seized, it is all a moot point. Perhaps you should consider packaging Toque in some sort of plastic bottle. I bet a customs declaration of “snuff bottles” would not even raise the attention of any customs agent! (By the way, whoever filled out the customs declaration on my most recent Toque order wrote “tobacco tins” and not “snuff tins.” If PACT becomes law, I suggest that it is not a good idea to write “tobacco” in the contents form.) Or you can wrap Toque in a tobacco leaf (or paper containing tobacco substance), call it a cigar and be immune from all of this regulation.

@whistlrr: I have never “corrected” you or any of your posts. I have no idea where you are getting that idea from.

While I can imagine a few hard core US snuffers convincing a local store to go through the hassle of registering with Mr. Snuff, probably by paying them a hefty upfront fee, it’s hard for me to imagine those few individuals generating enough of a trade to justify Mr. Snuff staying in the snuff wholesaling business, not to mention the affect that it would have on Tom at Nicotinerush staying in the retail trade. A handful of anecdotes about people who were able to convince a local shop to accept snuff deliveries on their behalf doesn’t make me hopeful. I think it’s transparently clear that one of the implicit purposes of the PACT Act is precisely to put internet tobacco dealers like Mr. Snuff out of business in order to restrict competition in local cigarette and smokeless tobacco markets from online smokable tobacco dealers, and sellers of alternative tobacco products like snuff and snus, thereby enabling large tobacco companies with well established retail distribution networks to increase their profits. The government WANTS Mr. Snuff, Nicotinerush, Getsnus, etc. to go out of business, and government never works quite so well as when it’s attempting to destroy small businesses. I am naturally pessimistic and prone to despair, so take my conjecture with the appropriate grains of salt, but while I think I could find a tobacco retailer (I presume it would just have to be someone with a license to sell tobacco products–not necessarily a tobacco specialty shop) to receive orders for me, it’s hard for me to imagine enough people doing so to justify the continued existence of a legal snuff market in the US, aside from the odd tin of Poschl or McChrystal’s here and there. Snuff and snus companies have largely written off Canada because of insanely high taxes, and now I suspect they will (with great reluctance and regret) write off the US. As Mr. Snuff points out, the major hurdle is not the USPS restriction, it’s the liability for collecting taxes, keeping records and submitting regular reports to each of the 50 states in which an online retailer does business. I can imagine that being physically and technologically possible, but I can’t imagine it being economically viable. It’s really a shame, because the availability of a wide variety of super high quality snuffs has probably never been higher. As I suggested above, I’m a compulsive worrier, and 99% of the things that I worry about never come to pass. I hope my record continues. But to paraphrase a quote from the old movie “Airplane” it appears that I picked the wrong decade to try to quit smoking.

If it keeps up like this, I’m going to rent a Lincoln Town Car and take a snuff grand tour across the Deep South, visiting every snuff factory and every Food Lion or Winn-Dixie I come across, until the cavernous trunk is loaded with 1.15-oz tins and 4.65-oz tumblers, enough to fill an entire shelf in my root cellar. And why stop at snuff? I’ll have twists hanging from the coat hooks, bags of Stoker’s peach and black cherry chew piled up in the backseat, and maybe even a few cartons of Florida cigs for good measure. Then I’ll just smile and wave at the Michigan State Police trooper as I sail merrily up 75 and back home. Why not; people do it with fireworks all the time…

[quote]“If the USPS knows it is tobacco inside the package they are legally obliged to seize it. Period.”[/quote] Unless that tobacco takes the form of a cigar, then the USPS has no right to seize it or interfere with its delivery. Crazy, huh? Just how in the world do they intend to enforce this? @LHB: Of course PACT was designed solely to strengthen and protect Altria’s market monopoly by destroying the Native American tobacco business. Make no mistake about it, that is PACT in a nutshell. To answer your earlier question, I am not optimistic about any of this because, even if PACT is arbitrarily enforced, the bureaucratic nightmares small vendors will have to deal with in order to remain in business is enough to probably not make it worth their while. @James S.: Surely there have to be shops in Michigan that sell or can order American snuff? It is not going away.

Forgive me if I’m slow here, but I do have an MA in Economics. Why should this put any e-tailer out of business? I think our friendly snuff suppliers are looking at this with the thoughts “I don’t want to screw my faithful customers.” This is commendable. However, if the extra pita of building a spreadsheet, charging 50 different taxes, mailing those taxes, and doing the paperwork means they must double or triple the price before taxes to make it worth their while, SO BE IT. I’ll pay for that easy access to my snuff, and I’m betting 98% of current customers would do the same. It’s called inelasticity of demand. I’ll stick with you. Others will. Stick with us

Yeah, I agree. The thing about snuff, and snus, is it’s just not that easy to get at the local store. If the extra work and taxes make the prices go up, people will still buy, because it’s either that or live without.

@ zanaspus I especially hope you’re right, and that the online snuff retailers will give it a try, and see if demand is, in fact, that price inelastic. I can see my own price elasticity of demand being very, very low over a certain range of prices, maybe up to double what I’m paying now. But, just for the sake of argument, if we assume a linear demand curve for snuff, the higher up the demand curve we move, the closer we get to the portion on which demand becomes price elastic. Maybe snuff has a constant price elasticity of demand, but I would argue only up to a certain price. And let’s not forget that part of that price increase will involve an increase in taxes, in Texas over $1.10 per 28 grams, which the retailers will never see. My point was that I was NOT hopeful about the industry surviving on the basis of people having to locate local retailers to accept deliver for them. Demand may be very price inelastic, but when transactions costs increase like that, it has a tendency to dramatically decrease demand for the product in question. I’m using mildly technical economics jargon here because you say you have an MA in the subject. But a greater than 2000% increase in the RYO tax did not destroy the RYO business. However, many RYO online dealers are talking about closing up shop because of PACT. Maybe everybody is just freaking out with anger as I am, and will settle down into an “it’s just business” mode; “let’s figure out how to make this work.” Roderick earlier had an idea about exploiting something like an ISTA as a way of imitating the retailer/wholesaler relationship that skirts the difficulties of selling to individual consumers. I wish he would explain the logic behind that idea, as it seemed like a good one at the time. Again, here’s hoping that I’m wrong about snuff takers in general and you’re right. My credit card bills show the level of my commitment, but a handful of loyal customers does not make a national market. @ tom502 It’s ALWAYS pay the higher price or live without, for any good or service. If most people just view snuff as a pleasant diversion, and rising tobacco prices start eating up more of their budgets, I’m worried that they will indeed choose to live without it.

What country is the most free in regards to tobacco rights?

I just spoke to an online snuff retailer in Austin who is located at the same physical address as one of the two major WoS, F&T, McChrystal’s’ wholesalers in the U.S. (the other being Mr. Snuff). To put it as succinctly as possible, he said the Texas Smokeless Tobacco Tax lost him most of his Texas customers, the PACT Act will lose him most of his interstate customers, and he plans on exiting the mail order snuff business after the PACT Act passes. In his words “The business is so small, it just isn’t worth it.” The business also sells drinking and smoking accessories and hand made jewelry, so they have something else to fall back on.

If Mr. Snuff and Nicotine Rush each decide to do business in only 25 states, splitting between them, each shop’s potential paperwork is reduced by half.

But the UK does not allow local snus sales, or dip. I’m thinking it might be India. I am meaning tobacco in all forms.

@kjoerup: Snuff in Michigan? Not really, except for a few tins of Pöschl ($6 for 10g? I don’t think so) and one place by me that sells Garrett.

@ Xander: Spitting between them? I thought they had a pretty good relationship!

what about this as alternate or Plan B idea? Can MrSnuff send his wholesale catalog to us, his current customers, and we could then take that catalog list into our local tobacco shops and ask for special orders that way? we’ll also have a leg up on what things should cost, having bought them already at MrSnuff and NIcotineRush etc prices so we have a general idea (allowing for shipping and respective state taxes to be considered too) on what to expect to pay. if he special order/sends our individual orders to a local shop of our choosing he at least keeps the same level of business he has now with us, his usual customers at a rate we can all afford and in a manner he can manage, and safely for all as well, plus we help a local physical business in the process. Even if a physical store declines to make steady shelf space (what some are saying is the problem) special ordering really is someting to consider and I can’t see a shop being nearly as likely to decline this… but we the customers would need access to that list in our hands and MrSnuff’s wholesale (“special order” in this instance) contact information etc I keybaord caps problem today sorry… i really think this is a simple and most reliable and likely solution… if MrSnuff is able, has enough wholesale catalog/lists printed outand would not mind them being in his current direct customers hands to do this… i haven’t asked yet, i guess i am asking here. @Roderick, this idea might well apply to you too… what if we’re asking special order imports from you, just the same but from you in the UK… do you think this would circumvent some of the problems you’re going to be facing the same way otherwise? if you’re a wholesaler shipping special order to my little local store for me here in the US, are you likewise freed up the way I think MrSnuff and NicotineRush etc are? No more royal mail vs USPS etc issues for you then eitehr maybe? would you, Roderick be wiling and able to do this, the same way,let us have toque whole sale catalogues to take to our local stores and say 'I’d like a 250g back of quit from toque in the uk for me, can you get it in for me from him/them?" etc I’m also wondering about Stoker’s now the same way, they do have a catalog but its a retail one I guess (have not received it yet) they’ll also have to do something different too I guess, wonder if special ordering with them through a physical store will be the new option there too… @Minimark I understand Xander’s idea there and its not about ‘relationship’ its about lowering the total burden and sharing the massive load of the entire 50 states tax registration reporting and paying and whatever the whole entire ordeal per state is, so that by splitting the burden by halves each store would only have to register pay report etc and be responsible for 25 each instead of each individually attempting the entire load of all 50. I don’t happen to know if NicotineRush currently does or is planning in the future to do wholesale.

Thanks, Mark. lol “splitting” of course. Typo has been fixed. I mean to say that the good relationship could be furthered in this manner.

Who’s "MiniMark?" Lol, funny typo’s today. For the record I’m about 6-4 and I’ve never been in an Austin Power’s movie… : )

@tom502 About free tobacco countries, I think Russia is the most free in Europe; you can sell everything there. People from Eastern Finland go to Russia to get their snus, for example. And you can still smoke in pubs.

heh, that one’s actually not a typo. You can blame that one on just really bad eyesight, I squinted, saw a a few M’s and I"S figured I’d squinted enough and well… its also how ‘Roderick’ first became ‘Roger’ and before that and elsewhere ‘TropicalBob’ became ‘TobaccoBob’ (just call me the Emily Latella of the Internet).

@LHB: The RYO business survived solely because of the “pipe tobacco” loophole. “Cigarette tobacco” was relabeled as “pipe tobacco” and sold at the significantly lower pipe tobacco tax rate. However, its days are numbered. There is now a bill in the House aimed at closing that loophole. H.R. 4439 will raise the federal pipe tobacco tax from $2.8311 per pound to $24.78 per pound. This will destroy the traditional pipe tobacco trade and be the death knell for RYO. There was no real Congressional opposition to PACT, and there won’t be for this either. Once that transpires, how many independent tobacco shops do you think are going to remain? The owner of one of the local shops told me that 70% of his business is “pipe tobacco” (and these customers do not own pipes, if you know what I mean). In 2009, SCHIP killed off around 40% of his revenue, and the business has never really recovered. When pipe tobacco is taxed at the same outrageous rate as RYO tobacco, the business is effectively dead. He told me that he has no plans to renew his lease. What choice does he have? He is being forced out of tobacco retail, and he will not be the only one. I witnessed two local tobacco shops close last year, and the others are sure to follow. I did notice that this shop does sell Stoker’s moist snuff and chewing tobacco. They are more than happy to order the dry snuff for me. The only problem is that the state tax on a 2 lb. container is $35.20 – and I am just not willing to pay that. Quite frankly, I would rather go without than pay such prices. I am fortunate in that I have been able to stockpile enough of my favorite snuffs to last me for many years to come. I certainly wont be running out any time soon, but it is sad that it has all come down to this.

@MrSnuff: THe reason Roderick can continue to ship snuff to the US and have it delivered is a bit complicated. Firstly, the Royal Mail service has a contract with USPS. Under its terms, anything mailable in the UK is mailable in the US so long as it comes from Royal Mail. For example, alcohol is unmailable by USPS, but they delivered me some no problem as it came from the UK via Royal Mail. Also, the US is a member of the WTO. Under international laws the US is bound by, it cannot legally interfere with international commerce, as long as the product is legal in the US. Obviously, Amsterdam can’t mail me weed, but Roderick can mail me snuff. Also, as Roderick said, if it gets intercepted ( a big if for customs in some areas), Roderick can reship for free so long as your order is under $40, as it’s covered by insurance. If the US starts refusing/seizing packages of objects mailable in the UK that are sent by Royal Mail, the UK can have the USPS for breach of contract. WE can still reasonably order from any UK shop and expect it to be delivered, although we’d be buggered on the exchange rate. I hope that our online retailers will be able to continue running as they are now, because in all likelihood, I’ll just have to order from Europe otherwise, since I doubt I could convince my local tobacconist to take deliveries just for me. On a different note, would it be possible for me to simply make an order, and swing on up to Plattsburgh to pick it up? I don’t mind paying all the taxes I’d need to in NY, and it’d only be an eight-hour round trip. I’d just need to place larger, less frequent orders.

@ kjoerup Please don’t tell my friends that I ever said anything even remotely optimistic; it will ruin my reputation. I was in the grocery store today, picking up a few 6 packs among other things. Those two six packs will last me 6 days and cost $18. I drink a 4 oz. whisky every day, and a bottle of Jameson’s costs me $28. So my alcohol habit runs me about $200 per month, not to mention a few extras on the weekend and occasional restaurant and bar consumption. I looked at some of my AmEx Bills from 10 years ago, when I was drinking very heavily, and I was spending about $700 per month on alcohol just for at home consumption. Summer of 2006, gas was at $5 per gallon for premium, so filling up my car cost $75. Cigarettes used to run me $120 per month for a pack a day habit before the excise tax increase last April, which was the first time in my life I attempted to quit; it had nothing to do with health. Not to mention that my hi fi dealer is bugging me about getting the new Linn Radikal Power supply for my turntable, which will cost $3900 before sales tax (just for a new power supply!!!). All of those positive feebacks I have at ebay come from buying used records, which typically ranged in price from $20-$75, not including shipping, or the times I splurged on first pressings, demos and DJ copies for $200-$350 apiece. When I look at those numbers, RYO seems like a bargain, even at the post SCHIP tax rates, and even after paying the obscene Texas Tax rates on snuff (let’s assume the higher future tax rate of $1.50 per oz.) it still works out to 5.4 cents per gram. Those of you from other states should bear in mind that Texas has some of the highest smokeless tobacco rates in the country. If you do 4 grams of snuff per day, which I’ve never managed even on a hard day, that’s about 22 cents per day in state taxes (which is far less tax than you pay on a gallon of gas), which is about how much the beer is worth that I dump out of each glass because it’s gone flat. In other words, on a bad day, I currently pay about 50 cents per day for snuff, and smoke 5 Natural American Spirits at $6 per pack, which equates to $1.25 for pre made cigarettes. RYO would be less. If the price of snuff doubles, to where it costs me $1 per day, my tobacco habit will cost about $65 per month, which is about half of what it was when I was smoking Kools and Newports BEFORE the excise tax increase, and is less than one-third of what I pay for alcohol every month. And that represents a level of consumption that would have me feeling severe nicotine overload by the end of the day. Moderation would result in a lower level of expenditure. Of all the vices I have, even if the price of snuff doubles, it will still be by far the cheapest among them. I earn less than anyone I know with similar academic credentials and experience who teaches at public universities, so I am far from wealthy. I’m not saying that this piece of legislation isn’t evil, rotten and corrupt; it is all of those things, and it infuriates me. I’m very worried that our fantastic snuff retailers are going to decide that staying in business isn’t worth it. But putting even the HIGHER price in the perspective of insanely high prices for everything that gives euphoric pleasure ($40 lids of coma-inducing Columbian Gold and $20 Thai Sticks are a thing of the distant past), it seems very, very inexpensive. BTW, thanks in the extreme for coming to my defense over at Snuson. I can’t believe a few people immediately caught on to the fact that I was quoting King Crimson. That really gives me hope for the future. @shikitohno I think the mail thing is eventually going to have to be sorted out in court. What you and Roderick say is correct, but the PACT Act is a new law that will conflict with the old ones. It happens all the time, which is one reason why courts are so clogged up. Too many laws. And then there are the vagueries of dealing with international trade in “gray market” items, to which anyone who’s ever dealt with international pharmacies will attest. A lot of stuff gets through; some stuff doesn’t. And when a court case IS triggered, it is far more likely that it will be over Ukrainian cigarettes at $20 per carton, than one of Roderick’s discrete “5 for the price of 6” packages of snuff. I still hope we can convince our US Snuff retailers to give staying in business a try, and raising prices to cover the additional overhead. As I suggested above, even at much higher prices, snuff is a very inexpensive “vice.” BTW, I don’t think you have to convince a tobacco specialty store to take receipt of shipments for you, just anyone with a tobacco retailer’s license. But even if you do, given the hard times that most tobacco dealers are facing, I would think offering them a $20 just for “laying in the cut” and being there to sign for a prepaid order would be pretty irresistable, especially if you bought something else or hinted that you would send a few friends their way to do likewise. One of the things that makes snuff seem expensive, and which makes prospective price increases seem so horrible, is the fact that it’s so incredibly cheap now, so everybody (including myself) is constantly engaging in these huge impulse purchases that we’ll probably never end up using. I still have only finished off two tins since I started, and I’ve been going for over 4 months. The amount that I have in back stock and half used smash boxes is obscene. And I’m placing another order tomorrow.

On the brighter side of things, I ought to mention that I never once have had a problem receiving any of the bottles of absinthe I’ve had mailed to me from Europe, even back when absinthe was banned in the US. (That was finally changed in 2007, and now most absinthes are legal here.) Neither have I ever had a bottle seized by US Customs whenever I bring any with me off the plane. Why? Because they don’t have a clue, and absinthe was never deemed enough of a “problem” to warrant a memo reminding the dolts to be on the lookout. As I alluded to earlier, Roderick has one thing going in his favor: nasal snuff is not on anyone’s radar, and you’d be hard pressed to find someone in the federal government and US Customs who knows or cares what it is. Now, if Roderick were sending tens of thousands of packages through the USPS every week, then perhaps it might raise someone’s curiosity. As much as I wish Roderick continual growth and success, I don’t imagine that this is the case.

I also never had a problem when ordering absinthe from Europe back when it was illegal here in the States. Also, here in Utah, clove cigarettes are illegal to sale, but I ordered a carton of them from Malaysia and had no problem getting them.

@Roderick: Whomever it is you spoke with at the US Embassy is simply reading you the PACT bill, which specifically states that PACT is an extension of the Jenkins Act. The Jenkins Act applies only to interstate commerce. Below is the relevant section. They cannot compel a UK company to do this, just as they cannot compel you to report to US federal and state tax authorities: [quote] Sec. 2A: ‘(b) Shipping and Packaging- ‘(1) REQUIRED STATEMENT- For any shipping package containing cigarettes or smokeless tobacco, the delivery seller shall include on the bill of lading, if any, and on the outside of the shipping package, on the same surface as the delivery address, a clear and conspicuous statement providing as follows: ‘CIGARETTES/SMOKELESS TOBACCO: FEDERAL LAW REQUIRES THE PAYMENT OF ALL APPLICABLE EXCISE TAXES, AND COMPLIANCE WITH APPLICABLE LICENSING AND TAX-STAMPING OBLIGATIONS’.[/quote] This applies if one is sending tobacco products (except cigars) through the USPS.; not through the Royal Mail. This is not your problem or concern. Your only obligation is to meet Royal Mail policies and standards. Unless Royal Mail policy dictates that you affix such a warning to your packages, then you do not have to do so.

@Kjoerup: All shipments of tobacco from the UK to America have to have a customs declaration on them which says what is in them (eg:“tobacco Snuff”) and often are opened by customs. Customs is where you will probably have your problems, and the declaration on the package does alert the mail what is in the package, doesn’t it.

I have had very few packages ever opened by US Customs. Of course it can happen, but it is rare. Toque usually states “snuff tins” on the declaration form. My point is that the Royal Mail does not require that Toque affix a ‘SMOKELESS TOBACCO: FEDERAL LAW REQUIRES THE PAYMENT OF ALL APPLICABLE EXCISE TAXES, AND COMPLIANCE WITH APPLICABLE LICENSING AND TAX-STAMPING OBLIGATIONS’ warning to the package. Roderick is not located in the US and is not using the USPS to ship his packages. It is up to his US customers to report and pay all appropriate taxes – and this has always been the case. Once those packages reach US Customs, it is up to them to decide what to do about them.

Roderick: Perhaps you should make stickers stating the wording of the Universal Postal Convention info above.

guys just call it incense for spiritual awakening. powdered aromatic herbal infusions and mixtures.

My guess is that “Powdered aromatic herbal infusions” would red flag homeland security a lot faster than snuff

“nose powder”

“Crumbs of Comfort”

Aromatherapy Supplies.

“homeopathic [dental/tooth/gum] treatment” (take your pick of one of the bracketed options – also not so far from the oft referenced ‘oral’ intent on some American Scotches) think of things like powdered “Lecithin” tack the same “statements have not been approved by the FDA” that they get away with on it, and done) “animal feed” and “plant food” would also work.

My pets eat a lot of snuff.

“animal feed” came to me as an option based on the stories (previously posted on this forum elsewhere) about feeding snuff to mine shaft mules in order to get them working again. “plant pesticide” would also work quite nicely.

Er… calling it “plant food” at the moment would probably be an exceedingly bad idea

Wow… never heard of that stuff. It’s only a matter of time before it hits here.

Which is surprising as the received wisdom here is that everything you lot get, we get a little later (used to be 10 years later, but I reckon the net has speeded things up a bit).

Maybe it is here, but I haven’t seen anything on the news about it.

I was actually thinking of that stuff when I suggested it (thinking "holy crap if that stuff can be sent as ‘plant food’ we’re in the clear with our safe little legal tobacco snuff’) but (and especially if its catching on to delivery/customs systems as an alert instead) I can see your point. Then I’m mostly back to my first idea (the one inspired by American Scotch snuffs and Dentobac/IPCO) which I think is the best and closest to reality (hey you certainly could use your snuff this way): “shipped as ‘homeopathic’ powder to upon reciept be mixed with water to make a paste and applied intra-orally” (or whatever) Heck maybe some southern americans who are using hickory sticks and WE Garrett etc might become Toque customers with this, you never know (and regardless of what wikipedia says, seems ‘homeopathic’ doesn’t seem to really mean much of anything except maybe closests to “safe and more than likely placebo effect for most things”) and you certainly could use your powdered snuff to apply directly as is or make up a liquid from it, to spritz on your garden to keep bugs at bay (no I’m not suggesting anyone actually do this so don’t run all tangentially off on me about this here, just the point you COULD and so therefor it COULD be sold that way and not be too far a stretch for ‘truth in advertising’)

Lots of people including me use snuff for insecticide. This is nothing new, discussed here many times. Risky to use on any nightshade family plants though. Surely there are several topics to be read in past threads. I’m not running off on a tanget, trying to prevent one.

Question: Can anybody look at the Michigan State Law and tell me if at least the PACT act would override that one? I understand that if a federal law deals with the same thing as a state law that the federal law gets right of way and cancels out the state one but I am not able to see if that’s the case here or not, can anybody look it over (both the PACT and the Michigan one) and see what you think?

You can read the PACT bill yourself at [url]http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s111-1147[/url] If Michigan state law prevents transport and delivery of tobacco products, then PACT does not change that fact. To wit: [quote][color=#00CC33]Sec. 2A ‘(C) STATE LAWS PROHIBITING DELIVERY SALES- ‘(i) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in clause (ii), nothing in the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009, the amendments made by that Act, or in any other Federal statute shall be construed to preempt, supersede, or otherwise limit or restrict State laws prohibiting the delivery sale, or the shipment or delivery pursuant to a delivery sale, of cigarettes or other tobacco products to individual consumers or personal residences. '(ii) EXEMPTIONS- No State may enforce against a common carrier a law prohibiting the delivery of cigarettes or other tobacco products to individual consumers or personal residences without proof that the common carrier is not exempt under paragraph (3) of this subsection. ‘(3) EXEMPTIONS- ‘(A) IN GENERAL- Subsection (b)(2) and any requirements or restrictions placed directly on common carriers under this subsection, including subparagraphs (A) and (B) of paragraph (2), shall not apply to a common carrier that-- ‘(i) is subject to a settlement agreement described in subparagraph (B); or ‘(ii) if a settlement agreement described in subparagraph (B) to which the common carrier is a party is terminated or otherwise becomes inactive, is administering and enforcing policies and practices throughout the United States that are at least as stringent as the agreement. ‘(B) SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT- A settlement agreement described in this subparagraph-- ‘(i) is a settlement agreement relating to tobacco product deliveries to consumers; and ‘(ii) includes-- ‘(I) the Assurance of Discontinuance entered into by the Attorney General of New York and DHL Holdings USA, Inc. and DHL Express (USA), Inc. on or about July 1, 2005, the Assurance of Discontinuance entered into by the Attorney General of New York and United Parcel Service, Inc. on or about October 21, 2005, and the Assurance of Compliance entered into by the Attorney General of New York and Federal Express Corporation and FedEx Ground Package Systems, Inc. on or about February 3, 2006, if each of those agreements is honored throughout the United States to block illegal deliveries of cigarettes or smokeless tobacco to consumers; and ‘(II) any other active agreement between a common carrier and a State that operates throughout the United States to ensure that no deliveries of cigarettes or smokeless tobacco shall be made to consumers or illegally operating Internet or mail-order sellers and that any such deliveries to consumers shall not be made to minors or without payment to the States and localities where the consumers are located of all taxes on the tobacco products. [/color][/quote]

see I have to take your word for it because reading the green text is just not helpful to me in sorting that out. Here is what I have found on the Michigan Law:Tobacco Purchasesand this (clicked to about 2 clicks away/through from the above)Consumer Warning NoticeCould somebody who can much easier read the jargon-speak of both the PACT act and this Michigan stuff please have a look and do a comparison/summary thing, and tell me if after looking at them both, if you think maybe one overrides the other? AND if one does not override the other… does it appear for example to even be possible for someone like say, MrSnuff to be a licensed vendor for Michigan? Instead of just sitting here being all kinds of terrified and assuming it all means a flat out ban for Michiganders… I’m asking

It’s self-explanatory. I even posted the relevant passage of the PACT bill for you. Once more: [quote]“… nothing in the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009, the amendments made by that Act, or in any other Federal statute shall be construed to preempt, supersede, or otherwise limit or restrict State laws prohibiting the delivery sale, or the shipment or delivery pursuant to a delivery sale, of cigarettes or other tobacco products to individual consumers or personal residences.”[/quote] So, no, it does not override state laws except in the case of the exemptions, which are also clearly spelled out. Neat, huh? Read it for yourself and do your own “comparing and summarizing thing.” The Michigan law seems fairly straightforward: the tobacco must be properly taxed; the vendor must be compliant with Michigan state tax laws. It is up to Mr. Snuff to decide whether or not they intend to ship to the state of Michigan. Ask them what they intend to do. How the hell would I or anyone else here know the answer to that? If an out of state vendor such as Mr. Snuff intends to ship to private individuals in Michigan, they will be required to report their sales to the appropriate state tax authorities. Both PACT and Michigan state law require this. YOU will be required to pay tax on your purchase(s) to the Discovery and Tax Enforcement Division, using form 4096B. You also have to pay Michigan Use Tax (6% of the total purchase price, including shipping and handling). You also will need to report said Use Tax on your annual state tax return (MI-1040)… If you buy from an unlicensed/noncompliant vendor, you risk the penalties. That is, if you get caught. You pays your money and you makes your choice. Those penalties are really just an intimidation tactic. I really would like to read about one example of someone being prosecuted for having a carton of smokes. They’re only going to go after big hauls. I would not worry about this. No one is going to prison over a tin of Supermint. It will be much less of a hassle and will probably work out a lot cheaper if you forget about snuff and go cop smack down the street instead. No reason to get terrified. People really need to calm down about this. The hyperbole is just getting silly.

I didn’t think that the language of the bill was that confusing, it’s better than others that I have read. President Obama still has not signed it.

@kjoerup: As the law reads now, the SHIPPER, (not the individual consumer), would be required to pay the states/county/cities tobacco tax on an individuals order BEFORE the package even ships. It remains to be seen how this will all ‘shake out’. At this point, no one knows what the final outcome will be. All we can really do is ‘wait and see’.

I am thinking that this will be a Pocket Veto. Obama has until tomorrow to sign it, if he does not, one of two things will happen: It will be a Pocket Veto, or it becomes law. Here is what makes me really think this is Pocket Veto-able: From the US Constitution: “The “presentment clause” describes the only way that a bill can become law: it must be passed in identical form by both Houses and it must be signed by the president or passed by a two-thirds vote of Congress over the president’s veto. If, while Congress is in session, the president does not sign a bill, it automatically becomes law. If Congress has adjourned or is in recess, the president can “pocket veto” the bill – in a sense, simply putting it in his pocket, unsigned. Congress cannot override bills that have been pocket vetoed.”

So, does pocket veto make it not a law?

It is a veto, so no it would not be a law. It also makes it impossible for congress to override the veto.

I think I just realized the answer to the question, see if this sounds right: Michigan puts the tax-paying burden/responsibility on the Michigan customer, while PACT puts the burden on the retailer in which case I would think PACT would override the Michigan law (and make life a little easier for MIchiganders anyway, but uniformly hard for everyone

We may have gotten to him. Someone wrote a congressman about the snuff he’s read it and now he’s snusing. God imagine seeing the president with the tell tale snus lump.

he’s got such odd flat little dark lips to begin with, that’d be interesting

It does seem the American Indians are our best friend in this regard. http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/national/northeast/89260972.html

I don’t think his lips are odd, look fine to me. Not sure if we got to him or if the Seneca President got to him. Keep in mind, I could be very wrong about the Pocket Veto, this is just my interpretation of the Constitution.

his lips are really dark and are small and shaped funny and just look like they don’t fit at all on a Black man’s face to me (especially due to the what seems extremely dark color of them, its almost like he’s wearing a nearly black lipstick on them). These don’t show them looking too small (seems they look too small to me mostly when I see him talking with them on television then) but here’s a couple of him really looking like his lips are just too dark to me. Woops the second one is a wee bit huge to include here, adding it as a link onlyBarak Obama official portrait

Gosh, that bottom pic is giant. Well, he is half black.

Yes, and on him its made a weird mismatch out of his lips to the rest of him imo (looks like he’s wearing punk rockers lipstick or something like it to me half the time).

Lol, sorry Whistlrr, I have to call you on this one. So because he’s Black and has “small, flat lips” they are odd? As Tom said, he is half black.

No, I think its because he’s half and half and on him it means his lips just didn’t come out quite right for the rest of his face (its like his lips are trying to be darker than the rest of him, which just makes them look weird the way they do it, and they are also just too small, too thin and really sink in, especially when he pinches them up to talk) I was really looking for one of the examples where he’s standing up in one of those sort of ‘town hall’ things where he takes questions from people and he’s wearing white business shirts with the sleeves rolled up (I’ve really seen him do it there), but here’s an example anywayObama at Berlin

Ok.

Anyway, just look at the video example I gave above, and imagine him trying to hide even a mini portion snus in there while he’s talking… not gonna happen EDITED to add – don’t get me wrong, I think he’s actually quite good looking, unusualy so in fact… both in the degree which he is good loking and the … unusualness in which/the way in which he is good looking (but if its all the same to anybody and since its on a related topic I may as well say I also find those enormous tea-cup ears of his sticking out to be plain hilarious just to look at)

He rags on his ears and his name all the time. He doesn’t take himself too seriously. His lips just never jumped out at me as wierd.

Congress is in adjournment. If a pocket veto takes place while Congress is in adjournment, that bill dies. If the pocket veto takes place while Congress is in session, it becomes law by default. Crazy rule, but that’s how it works. Now, according to govtrack.us, PACT was presented to Obama on March 19. Hmmm. I am not sure if that is right. Is this date actually correct? Because if that is correct, the ten days were up yesterday. So did PACT quietly die yesterday?

The 10 days does not include Sundays, so it’s either today or tomorrow, depends when you start counting.

Ah, I forgot about the Sundays. Thanks for reminding me.

According to the official White House site, PACT was submitted to Obama on March 18. If *that* is the correct date, then today is decision day. I wish they could at least get the damn date sorted out.

If you count the 18th, then it would be yesterday, if not then it is today. Also, if you look at the legislation under PACT, it says that “The President has received this legislation” whereas PACT just says that it was “Sent” to the President.

Lol. “Sent to President” … “Received by President.” Govtrack uses the term “Presented to President,” which may or may not mean “sent to,” OR may or may not mean “received.” Even better, this White House page gives us the wonderful sentence: “This legislation is has been passed through Congress.” Who the hell is in charge of that site??

I’m not sure but I think I see something sticking out of his breast pocket in this picture… Sorry, I couldn’t resist!

Nice one, Mark! @Kjoe: Interns

I’m glad you guys got back on topic. Yes, I would think it has until tomorrow to be signed. After that its in legal limbo. True, Congress cannot override a pocket veto, because technically they can only override true vetos. They can resubmit the bill in identical form. There is also some ambiguity as to what an ajournment is. More info on Pocket Vetos can be read in Wikipedia HERE

Legal limbo is right.

LOL miamimark “Ahem, uh, Mr. President, erm, your Toque is showing sir.” Good stuff that!

There is a dispute over whether the president can pocket veto during a short term recess or only when congress adjourns sine die. Nixon used the pocket veto on an appropriations bill during a Christmas break and Ted Kennedy challenged the veto in court. Nixon lost in the circuit court and the district court, then decided not to appeal to the supreme court. After him Ford continued to use the pocket veto, but since then Congress has appointed someone to receive communication from the president to receive veto information during short recesses. If he does pocket veto the bill I am sure the veto will be challenged. Obama did use the pocket veto on a bill during the 2009 Christmas break, but sent a message to Congress explaining the veto and the house did uphold the veto by having an override vote. The bill was a temporary extension of funding which became unnecessary because the main funding bill passed and was signed. The better way to approach this would be a regular veto with the explanation of what is wrong with the bill (unconstitutional on the grounds it has the federal government enforcing state laws; violation of the sovereignty of Indian nations and violation of treaties etc). I hope it happens, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

OK, last one!

Do Roderick’s lips look funny to anyone else, or is it just me?

@Roderick: I don’t either? Is he from Japan or China? LOL.

I’m just wondering what the shape, size and colour of Obama’s lips has got to do with the PACT? To me, his lips are quite normal in any case. @Bart, I really think Roderick needs a bit of bright red lipstick. But then again, I like his hairstyle a lot and that makes up for the lack of lipstick. Wonder where we will find those little Toque badges the gentlemen are wearing? It seems as if the guy up front needs to go to the loo soon. Guessing from the little smile on Rodericks face, he knows it.

Well, I think today(or maybe yesterday), was the final day for this. I don’t have any updates. I am guessing it’s a pocket veto. I suspect the Indians may have had an impact, which they should.

I haven’t been able to find anything stating any change on this. Don’t hold your breath.

I wonder if this is also a deciding factor for Pres. Obama on what to do with PACT.

Here’s a major change from yesterday: PACT has disappeared from the White House ‘Pending Legislation’ page.

curious. Perhaps it was signed and govtrack is not up to date.

That is possible. There is no mention on the White House site of it being signed either. We shall see.

Well, maybe it just drops off after reaching its “expiration date.” Fingers crossed.

That is a very recent change, it was still on there earlier today! @Xander: There is still legislation on there from March 11th.

Keeping my fingers crossed, hoping for a pocket veto

Someone thinks he has signed it. LINKThe article is post-dated to tomorrow. Do authors write news before it happens?

Ditto…that or I’ll ram this pitchfork…

Sorry folks:Signed

nooooooooooooooooo

looks like we have 90 days from today to stock up… :"(

It’s not the end of the world, just more red tape. Read the CBO report, it’s a sobering reality that this is really not enforceable and somewhat pointless.

Mr. Snuff has already said that he will stay open. Once again, it is not the end of the world.

Shit. I always figured this was inevitable, but I was still holding onto a modicum of hope. Oh, well.

Oh well is right, Kjoe.

So, is this the end of nicotine rush? no more Two-Day-Tom?

Probably.

will refrain from totally going the hell ballistic!

bleh. Life goes on.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH FFFudge!

Bring on the powdered tobacco cigar!

Indeed it does, Xander.

well shit. Obama said he’d bring change, never said it would be for the better though.

Don’t think for a second that if McCain were in office, that he wouldn’t sign it. Or if that lap dog Palin were in there that she wouldn’t sign it. It’s just politics.

I know the overseas thing but it is the wait time man!

Maybe if the hypocrite wasn’t a SMOKER it’d be a bit more paletteable.

Okay so it’s either wait for a week or… don’t order?

And Prohibition stopped everyone from drinking alcohol.

I can wait a week, Obama dont care about the price, he is rich,LOL.

My In laws are big obama fans, BLAH BLAH BLAH. He still sucks.

Unlike all those Republicans who stood up and objected to PACT, right?

They all suck one not more than the other, cant stand politicians, Obamas no different than mccain, They are all hypocrites. Why do you think they are not touching cigars, HMMMMMMMMMM.

Word, kjoerup.

Why waste time bickering over it? There’s snuff to be hoarded!

Now you sound like one of obamas groupies. Not seeing any positive change boys.

Terrorists and children only like cigarettes and snuff. They have an aversion to cigars. They are either with us or against us.

Not surprised he signed it. Unless I can grab some tins of scotch during trips out of town (I live in South FL, Snuff wasteland), I’ll probably just eventually quit. Can’t really economically justify hoarding more snuff. Here’s hoping that everything works out for mrsnuff and he is able to keep the doors open.

Whatever country you’re from, you can overcome.

Damn! I take that back. The ink isn’t even dry on Obama’s signature, and the terrorists have already changed tactics.

That third pic is hilarious!

Anybody else notice this stuff is actually written for April 1st (April Fools Day)? Yeah, I know… talk about your last last ditch hope, but still… Meanwhile I’m still trying to figure out how it can even be signed apparently a day or maybe two days after it was supposed to be expired… and trying to figure what this means for people who sniff who live in “a certain state that starts with M” that already had its own sort of 'reverse PACT act" (holding its residents responsible for paying taxes but leaving no possible way for its citizens to be law abiding and actually do that), when this one, this PACT holds the other end, the retailers responsible… I think the PACT and this other specific state law must be in compatible… unless they plan to nail both ends at the same time for the same thing, who knows?

As Dubya would say: Fool me once, can’t get fooled again.

people might think this is a bit extreme of me to say (but you’d have to realize its not just this PACT thing, its actually a whole lot of things that go into me saying this and this is just yet another little straw in the scheme of things that’s piled on adding to it) that I honestly and really hope we’re all done on 12/21/2012 in fact if we’re not its gonna confuse the f**k out of me if on 12/22/2012 I’m still here (and if even half of what what drives me to hope I’m not is also still here with me).

Ugh. Speak for yourself, Whistlrr.

well, another thing is, I can also be more sure anyway, that I’ll have enough snuff to last at least until specifically 12/21/2012. When I look at it that way that seems a bit more ‘doable’ (as does the general all-purpose “I think can take whatever is dished out… as long as its only going to be going on for another 3 more years”)

cstokes4 – just where in what I said do you even begin to read into it that I was speaking for you or anyone else?

Are you even aware of what you type?that I honestly and really hope we’re all done on 12/21/2012

cstokes4, put the glass of booze down (you getting tanked and getting obnoxious and stalking after me nightly on this forum is getting old and there’s only so much looking the other way to it I’m going to do before I start fighting back) so, put the glass (or the entire bottle down) and read it again, because its not impressive that once again you’re apparently too ‘hammered’ again for YOU to ‘be aware of what I type’that I honestly and really hope we’re all done on 12/21/2012

Come on, whistlrr. Don’t despair. It’s just a stupid, unenforceable law. You’ll still be able to get snuff, don’t worry. This is not worth getting depressed over. It really isn’t.

kjoerup, like I said, its not just this, not by a long shot, this is just one more little thing added to an already bigger pile of plenty, many many others, a slew of '‘little things’ that together all amount to a bigger thing aka ‘straws on a camels back’

PACT is now fact. The legislation is behind us. This thread has outlived its purpose. It ought to be allowed to sink.

@cstokes4 right and we’re all reading your angry bullshit wannabe know-it-all obnoxious bullshit and are so duly impressed by it Getting all drunk and miserable and stupid trying to share your misery, yes that’s truly impressive (you do believe me, right?) and re: “fuck off” – you first, asshole, go find your one and only friend – “Mr Palm”

I wonder if the PACT Act includes tobacco seeds? Hmmmm Something tells me no. I think there are some pretty handy folks in this forum. I for one will be growing some 'baccy along with those folks. I’ll show you mine if you show me yours…lol

Ah you crack me up. I haven’t had a drink yet. I’m doing something more constructive, than say, wishing the world would end and looking for a shoulder to cry on.

PACT concerns only cigarettes and smokeless tobacco. Cigars and tobacco seeds are completely unaffected.

Other than going through usual channels, voting, being informed, writing letters, phone calls, to combat what you feel is wrong, a person can’t concentrate on every slight they’re being dealt. The world’s gonna start closing in on you. This is still a wonderful world. I’ve seen many folks on their deathbed, and believe me, the small things don’t make a damn bit of difference at that point. Stay informed, ENJOY THIS LIFE, and F the rest you can’t change.

I think that’s enough guys… please… I hate closing threads. EDIT: I was referring to Whistler and Cstokes.

You must be drunk (again) if your idea of ‘something more constructive’ is habitually getting on a forum and trying to wag your little dick by still more of your making snide and shit-eating remarks at other members here. Just because you’ve ‘been here longer’ and a few people swear you ‘don’t troll’ hardly ‘makes it so’ or gives you some mystical rights to do it at least I am funny then if I ‘crack you up’ – certainly can’t say the same for your lame mehod and attempts to impress yourself and others

I can delete as fast as you can post…

…now ya’ll turn backs and take 20 paces…

Just stop, it’s easy.

No shit, Bart. While possibly regrettable, PACT is not the end of the world. Incidentally, I used to own a '61 VW Beetle my wife and I nicknamed “Bert.” I miss him Very needy car, but still one of the best cars we have ever owned. Sold it about five years ago.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that Mr. Snuff said he is going to stay open. I also forsee a lawsuit on behalf of the Indian Nations about this.

I’m glad I’ve got as much stored as I have and a major stockpiling on the way from Stoker’s. in a few days I’ll be able to figure out my next step on the course and go from there.

There is of course always the informal method of getting US snuffs. I can find about 12 different ones locally. I’m always happy to trade.

I’ve saved most of my Mr. Snuff and Nicotinerush boxes, and have lots of backstock of many things that I’m no longer than iterested in, so I would be happy to participate in an informal network of trading within the US. The laws governing private shipments and trades are pretty liberal. For example, suppose that Xander wanted to sample 20 assorted tins of Wilson’s snuff that I have, and I want to sample his money to see if it spends as well in the south as it spends in the Delmarva Peninsula. Who could possibly have a problem with that? I would also expect that the large tobacco companies that produce American snuffs would have a vested interest in trying to ensure their continued availability by working with Mr. Snuff, since they probably haven’t sold so much since the Spanish-American War.

American snuff was last milled during the Spanish-American War. They’ve been tapping the one silo that survived the Dust Bowl ever since.

@kjoerup LOL, haha, so that’s the ‘Dust Bowl’ Woody Guthrie was talking about! Very good!

I think 2012 may have some cred. not sure what will happen though, but something is possible. The Earth’s crust could rotate, it’s happened before, as tropical plants have been found frozen in the arctic. Sun rays could hit the planet cooking it… The Gov is building massive underground shelters. I also think an ET “return” may happen. Eventually something has to happen, look at Mars.

@ Tom502 Would you recommend I store my ‘Reeces Pieces’ for this in glass jars with rubber lids, zipper- baggies, or wine bottles?

I don’t think it would matter.

I’m not sure of the ins and outs, so I guess it seems OK. But as I read this, my question was, what does it require to be a licensed retailer? I mean, is this something anyone could do, or does is require big fees, and a shop?

I WILL BET ALL MY MONEY!!! We will still be around on 25/12/2012. Anyone wants to bet? If so, just whisper me and we can arrange it.

I can’t even begin to imagine how one goes about “moving” an operation to the UK such as you describe. Suffice it to say this is promising and hopeful word you’ve shared. Thank you!

Dave and Tom, you’ve made my day. Even if I have to pay more for my snuff, I cannot even think of not supporting you guys. As I’m a SA citizen and know nothing about the US laws, I can’t help you with anything. But, this I promise, I will keep on supporting you even if you move to the South Pole.

Dave, I know you were joking about Turks & Caicos not long back, but have you considered Bermuda or the Bahamas as place to HQ?

Dave, Tom, Thanks so much for being tenacious, and trying your best to work around this unfortunate circumstance. I will continue to talk up snuff and point those interested in your direction. I really think this is a hobby that is ready to fly high. We have a local pub here in Oakland (Albany, really) and the owner has been dogged by smoking laws and whatnot. I heard a story of some tax agency walking in with bar code scanners and walked out with his merchandise if taxes weren’t paid on it. I haven’t had a face to face talk with him yet about incorporating snuff and snus into his business, but I’ve talked to a couple of other pubsters and they are interested. I left a note for him but of course he hasn’t returned my call yet. If enough people are willing to buy,… well you get it. Some tobacconists scoff but I did have some luck when I was able to produce a products poster from Swedish Match, listing the snus brands they have. So, I would recommend sending some type of flyer with your snuff orders to customers so we could post them or bring them 'round to smoke shops to start getting the word out. Maybe, you could start venturing out to do-it-yourself packages with seeds and flavors and things. We could start turning our little hobby into one geared to a boutique style sharing club and give that ISTA idea some meat. I for one am very interested in growing my own and sharing it with you folks here. If I’m not wrong, there are some businesses who ship out little seedling plants ready to go. I have no idea about law and business, but I look at it like this. The more people who snuff, the more money generated. More money, better laws.

@Micheltn: R1,000,000.00 (One million Rand). I will bet anybody R1,000,000.00 that we will still be around on the 25th of December 2012

“Put up or shut-up”, as they say in SA He’s serious…

Funny you guys should be talking about this. I just saw that movie 2012 on DVD two days ago. It says it right there in the movie we will all be dead.

hehehe Least ways for those of us who’ve found the joys of snuff, when we go out it’ll be with dirty noses and a smile (-;

I’m dead serious about this! I will up it to R5,000,000.00 (Five million Rand).

No ones what will happen. If anything, but anything is possible.

I will take on any bet between R1,000.00 (One thousand Rand) and R10,000,000.00 (Ten million Rand). We can draw up a legal document.

I must say it would rather have impressed me, if the Mayans had foreseen their own downfall… but as far as I know, they haven´t seen that coming, not to speak of the exact date. Simply ridiculous. The more interesting question is, imo, why so many people feel that romantic towards the end of the world. @Pieter - As much as I like betting, but I hate 0% chances. lol

This is not an April fools joke. I will take on any bet. Seriously. But before you do take me on, sit down for a while and think about it.

Red Star, I can see that you’ve done your thinking!!!

Thanks! And I do hope, someone takes the bet. Nothing´s wrong with money earned easily If the world goes down the loo, though, they have to really spend the cash fast. lol @Mr.Snuff - I guess you can´t be too picky about the future location, but I really wonder if one of the British channel islands wouldn´t be quite good locations. As far as I know, they´re pretty low taxed there.

A few disconnected observations: 1) In all the discussions I’ve seen here and at snuson.com, I’ve heard no reference to any online snus or snuff retailers getting the advice of legal counsel. It might be a good idea. 2) If I correctly understand the principle of “judicial review” the law would have to go into effect, and then a legal case argued on the basis if its constitutionality, before a court could declare it unconsitutional. That would take a long time. In the meantime, the law would be in effect. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial\\_review[/url] 3) Compliance with the law seems to mean different things, depending on where the retailer is located. People whose businesses are located in other countries who ship products to the U.S. will not be any more engaged in “smuggling” under the new law, than they are engaged in smuggling right now. They are placing a package into their local postal system for delivery elsewhere. I just shipped a package of snuff to Portugal via the U.S. mail. i have to idea how the shipment will be completed, or what Portugal’s laws are on the importation of toboacco products. According to the postal manager of my company, I was fully in compliance with U.S. law when I mailed the package. 4) Firms relocating to other countries to avoid compliance with U.S. laws that impose higher costs on business is part of the larger general trend of “globalization” and “outsourcing” in international trade which is resulting in higher real incomes in the form of lower prices for many people, and the availabilty of products that U.S. retailers and manufacturers do not wish to make available to consumers. If other countries have a more “business friendly” environment for tobacco retailers who wish to selll their product in the U.S., I would expect rational, profit maximizing, international entrepreneurs to take full advantage of the opportunity. 5) Could we please create a seperate thread for ongoing speculation about the The Apocalypse?

I’m really liking this idea…shipping our snuff through royal mail and circumventing this utter abomination of a law. I’ve no problem paying taxes, that’s one thing, but the government knows exactly what they are doing…don’t think for one second the government just accidentally made getting smokeless products very difficult! I’m upset by this, but we have to move on…Dave and Tom relocating the the UK is going to cost a bit of money I’m sure, so lets all order a crap load of snuff!

Done and done man, a few cans here and there since I have a freaking horde as it is… going to alternate snuff and snus orders for the coming smokeless tax rape.

My wife would never have it, Pact or not, so I’m going to have to wait till next month and try to scrape another order together from the left overs left by all of you making huge investments at the moment.

edit sorry wrong thread there

Personally, I don’t think the Mayans predicted the end of the word. They predicted that by that point, Google’s calendar would be good enough, and just decided to pass on the torch. And in a way, that would be much more impressive.

Is the post about Mr. Snuff and NicotineRush moving to the UK an April Fools joke, or serious? It sounds very selfish (and it is) but if they did move to the UK and used the UK mail to send stuff to me in Canada, it would resolve a lot of my issues around getting a variety of snuffs in the future. Based on the UPS shipping thing that will come into effect in 3 months or so, it would be very difficult for me to get snuff from a US vendor. With all due respect to the existing UK snuff vendors, Mr. Snuff and NicotineRush appear to have a much wider selection right now. Of course, I am still waiting on my first snuff orders, so maybe I am being a bit premature…

Geraldo, The us vendors moving to the UK is based on the idea, as explained by Roderick, that the US cannot stop things shipped from Royal Mail because they have a contract to deliver on their behalf…and example given by another member was that it is illegal to ship alcohol via US Postal, but he can receive it in the mail because Royal mail has no such restrictions, thus negating the ban on mailing tobacco products. This works good for us US customers, but seems to be a downer for Canadian customers, unfortunately…

@matsnuffs - thanks, I do understand that Brits can use the Royal Mail to send tobacco. This is GOOD for Canadians too. UPS, on the other hand, is bad for Canadians, although it is pretty much neutral for Americans. Mail = good, for everybody UPS = bad, for Canadians I was just trying to confirm that this was a real proposal, and not an April Fool’s prank. If real, then it is VERY good for us Canucks, at least until Britain starts to follow crazy schemes implemented in the US and Canada already. @Alcyon - I think it depends on the actual tax rates. If it just adds a small amount to the US customer’s bill, and that US customer isn’t especially inconvenienced, it probably won’t increase black market stuff much beyond what already exists. In Canada, the tobacco taxes are truly astonishing. Just the provincial tax in BC alone would double or triple the cost of most of the snuffs I just ordered, and that doesn’t include the even heftier Federal tax. I bought some dismal commercial pipe tobacco (Amphora) recently at the ONLY place I could get it within an 8 hour drive of my place, and it cost the equivalent of $190 a pound. The seller claimed that most of that was tax (and considering that tobacco farmers in Ontario are going broke since they only get something like $0.80/pound for dried, cured tobacco, I tend to believe it). Consider that L’il Brown has pipe tobacco for under $20/pound (which I cannot buy, unfortunately) and you start to see the problem…and cigarettes are much, much worse. It is also very hard to get untaxed (native) tobacco in most of Western Canada - I suspect that the untaxed tobacco thing is largely a Central Canada luxury. The natives out here aren’t interested in tobacco - mining, hydropower, fishing seem to interest them much more. A farmer near the coast here in BC tried to set up a tobacco farm to grow organic tobacco, and the federal people swooped in before he even had a crop, confiscated all his equipment, destroyed the crop etc. Worse than anything they do for “illegal” BC bud. After all, this guy didn’t have all his tax forms filled out in advance, nor a permit for commercial growing. It was a test plot - 50 plants, I believe. In BC (maybe in Canada) it is even illegal to GIVE AWAY tobacco without a tax permit. I don’t think they have done that in the US yet…

n/t

I have a question, since Mr. Snuff and NicotineRush will be operating outside the US, does this mean US customers can still place our orders, just that our snuff will be shipped out from outside the country? Am I correct or completely wrong?

Do they need staff? if so, giz a job!

@ Mr Snuff Whereabouts in the UK will you be located? Have you thought of locating to the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney), or the Isle of Man? All are seperate jurisdictions from the UK and have very favourable, low tax rates and from my own knowledge (I want to move to the Isle of Man, and set up a business), the Manx government encourage new businesses to locate there. It might be worth a look at. Check out www.gov.im for more details. Search “Freedom to Flourish”.

@irauke - I would presume that, just like other UK retailers selling internationally, Mr. Snuff and NicotineRush would welcome US customer orders. They would ship from the UK, probably via Royal Mail, and sidestep the various shipping restrictions, taxation and bookkeeping issues that will plague US-based companies soon. @Walrus1985 - I thought I saw some news item that at least one of the Channel Islands has given up its autonomy for the “benefits” of UK services? Or was it just a proposal? They were going to put it to a vote, and the big “story” here was that only landowners get to vote there…

Jonathon Polack has announced he will be closing his business, clubsnus.com, intends to have it done with by June 19th. Our PACT Act at work. Saving children and forcing independent businessmen out. I want to add a touch of profanity at this point to underscore my disgust and disdain but I think you all can supply your own choice words as you read this for better individual effect.

Wasn’t Jonathon Polak the guy who recently made those youtube videos assuring his customers that PACT was not going to affect his business in the least bit? Hmmmm.

Ouch, salt in the wound O-; … we can’t all hit it right all the time… Yeah, that would be the one kjoe. It was a decent vid, to bad it missed the mark on reality.

Believe me, I’m not trying to pour salt on any wounds. He seems like a sincere guy, and I sympathize with the business owners and workers who are being put out of work due to PACT. Snus users ought to at least take solace in the fact that getsnus.com will survive, simply because it is in reality owned by a gargantuan multinational tobacco company (Swedish Match). They have the finances and resources to deal with PACT. Swedish Match is also working to expand retail snus distribution throughout the US for their General line. All in all, American snus users are going to have many more options and less to worry about than do nasal snuff aficionados.

As a non-American I’m a bit bemused by this PACT act furore, and there’s been too many posts to trawl through to get the gist of it. Is the following about correct ? Each state has different taxes on tobacco. In the past, unless the retailer was mailing within the state, tobacco was mailed tax free. The onus was on the purchaser to declare the purchase and pay the taxes. Under PACT, the seller has to register as a tobacco retailer in every state to which he wants to send goods. He has to charge the appropriate state tax on each order, pass said taxes to the individual states and submit paperwork to the federal government confirming that this has been done. (And as an aside, the US mail can no longer ship tobacco products).

@BradMajors, yeah that’s pretty much it. Since the states weren’t getting their piece of the pie now it’s on the sellers to pay up for us. It looks like private individuals can mail tobacco through the US mail, but not businesses.

Although I wont speak for Dave, even though I’m sure he will as well, I will still ship anywhere in the world. Tom

Right on Tom! As long as we can still get American snuffs from you and /or Dave we are ok. Not sure if I would want to live without the Rooster, Honey Bee, and WE Garrett. think i’ll place an order, while I’m thinking about it.

@Tom Most excellent! How goes the move across the water for you?

“Each state has different taxes on tobacco. In the past, unless the retailer was mailing within the state, tobacco was mailed tax free. The onus was on the purchaser to declare the purchase and pay the taxes. Under PACT, the seller has to register as a tobacco retailer in every state to which he wants to send goods. He has to charge the appropriate state tax on each order, pass said taxes to the individual states and submit paperwork to the federal government confirming that this has been done.” So everyone is simply complaining that they will now be forced to pay state tax on their Internet tobacco purchases, whereas before they were able to illegally smuggle tax-free tobacco across state lines ? Unless I’m missing something, this seems entirely reasonable. I can understand the individual states being annoyed that they are missing out on tax revenue. I can’t avoid paying tax. If I order something from within the E.U. I’m obliged to pay the local country’s tax. If I order something from outside the E.U., the company which delivers the product to my door (be it the Royal Mail or a courier) is obliged to collect sales tax and import duty. They also charge an administration fee for this process. Surely the Internet sellers could simply add such an administration fee to their orders to cover their extra costs for the collection of the state taxes ?

Another question: how does U.S. customs collect tax and import duty on foreign purchases ?

@Roderick: Are you saying that you provide the U.S. tax office with a list of purchasers and that the tax office is supposed to send the purchaser a tax bill ?

@BradMajors “So everyone is simply complaining that they will now be forced to pay state tax on their Internet tobacco purchases, whereas before they were able to illegally smuggle tax-free tobacco across state lines ?” In a nutshell, yes, we would be required to pay taxes that we technically should have been paying all along. But you must keep in mind a certain cultural mindset that some have. It’s kind of an American tradition to not want to pay taxes (-;

@BradMajors: The tax is secondary. Snuff is such a rare commodity in the US, a true niche market, so that it is barely worth the while of a very few retailers to handle it. The layers of red tape and paperwork this bill adds to it makes it even less attractive to these retailers, and thus less likely they will carry snuff. Cigarette consumers who object to PACT just don’t want to pay the taxes. Snuff consumers are worried about availability. This is a life and death struggle for the snuff and snus businesses in America.

@Nachman: Fair enough, that makes more sense now. I figured I must have missed something due to the outcry over what seems on the surface like a reasonable bill.

I don’t object to paying the taxes. I do object to not allowing the vendors to use the US Mail. Private courier such as UPS will cost about twice as much.

@Alcyon: “Brad, this is nothing personal but using the EU as an example of how things should be done may not be quite compelling.” I wasn’t using the E.U. as an example of “how things should be done”, I was merely explaining how the sales tax system works over here. Although lets face it, if PACT had introduced a similar system to the E.U. and simply forced internet retailers to pay local state sales tax for interstate orders, it would be much simpler to implement. “It strikes me from afar that the bill isn’t the slightest bit reasonable; it’s a combination between Big Tobacco and Pickpocket States who had to lie about “terrorists” and"saving the children” to make the whole thing seem reasonable." The arguments used by the politicians to ensure the passage of the bill may well have been wholly unreasonable, but it doesn’t change the fact that clamping down on illegal tax-free tobacco smuggling is a fairly reasonable aim. @Xander: I agree - it’s a bizarre, baffling decision to prevent the USPS carrying tobacco. Do you know what the reasoning behind this decision was ?

@BradMajors : PACT was really designed to put the tribal nation tobacco trade out of business. States have no legal right to hinder or interfere with the business and governance of the tribal nations, nor can they impose or collect taxes from them; that is strictly a matter between the federal government and the tribal nations. However, states can resort to intimidation tactics, and some of them (New York and Washington are the most extreme examples) successfully “persuaded” private carriers (UPS, FedEx and DHL) not to transport tobacco shipments within the state. The tribal nations within New York and Washington were then left with no choice but to rely exclusively upon the US Postal Service for delivery of their online tobacco sales. (State governments have no control over USPS policies and cannot interfere with its operations.) Enter Big Tobacco, namely Altria (Philip Morris USA). Understand that the fastest growing segment of the tribal nations’ tobacco business is Native American brands. They are doing their own manufacturing and distribution. So, not only can states not tax or collect any taxes on these brands manufactured in and sold from tribal nations, guess what? Smokers buy cheaper cigarettes that are cheaper because they are immune from the usual heavy state taxes. More worrisome for Big Tobacco, these cigarettes are not manufactured by Philip Morris USA. All the while, the tribal nations are doing absolutely nothing illegal. The states don’t like this because they are missing out on lucrative tax revenue. Philip Morris USA doesn’t like this because they are seeing their traditional dominance in the cigarette market being threatened by rapidly growing Native American brands. Smokers will happily switch brands when the only difference is that a carton of Seneca cigs costs half the price of a carton of Marlboros. That in turn concerns some powerful trade associations like the National Association of Convenience Stores, who see their cigarette retail going south and their stock of Marlboros sitting on the shelf unsold. So now you have all of the elements for this collusion. The states lobbied for the tobacco mailing ban precisely because this was the one thing states have no say over. Philip Morris USA is all for PACT because anything that puts the tribal nations out of the tobacco business is good for Philip Morris USA, period. It’s also good for Philip Morris USA’s customers, as represented by organizations such as the National Association of Convenience Stores. (As an aside that offers insight into the true mechanizations of the PACT bill, it is revealing to look at the [distant] number two Big Tobacco company, R.J. Reynolds, and its opposition to PACT. No, not because they are a bunch of fair minded guys and gals, but rather because they knew damn well it was a ruse to shore up and maintain Philip Morris USA’s near monopoly.) Now, getting the anti-tobacco zealots on board is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel, and, voila! PACT. This is the simplified version. There are other issues involved, but that’s the gist of it. PACT is an extension of the Jenkins Act, a law from 1949 that requires inter-state sellers of cigarettes to file tax information to the states they are selling to. Yes, this has been law since 1949. It was always basically unenforceable, though, as the states had no recourse in federal court to compel out of state vendors to actually file said tax info. PACT now gives federal agencies broad power to enforce this, imposing heavy penalties and felony charges for non-compliance. Two things to note about the Jenkins Act: 1) it does not affect tribal nations, 2) it applied only to cigarettes, and 3) cigars and smokeless tobacco were exempt. Cigars are still exempt under PACT, but note how smokeless tobacco was cleverly inserted into PACT. (Big Tobacco had no interest in smokeless in 1949. In fact they had largely divested themselves of any real involvement in it by that point. Today they are very much interested in it, and that is why they saw to it that smokeless tobacco was almost surreptitiously included in the PACT bill.) If you’ve thoroughly read the PACT bill and have wondered why it includes all of that strange hemming and hawing near the end, all about PACT not being meant to violate the sovereignty of tribal nations, now you know. It’s a disclaimer placed there specifically to cut off in advance any legitimate legal challenge to PACT by the tribal nations.

@kjoerup: Many thanks for that detailed explanation. It seems that the real reasons for PACT are quite shocking after all. The USPS transportation ban did seem strange to me. @Alcyon: “people won’t pay more than a reasonable amount for anything, that’s human nature”. When it comes to tobacco, tax rises never really affect consumption though. But point taken about the profits going to criminal classes - with cigarettes costing around $10 a pack over here, there’s plenty of smuggling going on. “I hope you take this in the spirit intended, sharing thoughts respectfully.” Well of course, and apologies if I gave the impression that this wasn’t the case.

The thing is, the Tribal nations are running a scam and they know it. They just don’t want to give it up because they’ve grown dependent on it. I have every sympathy for their status, but the law says they are allowed to make tobacco and sell to themselves tax free. When they are selling it to outsiders they are not really complying with the spirit of the law. If they are in theory, seperate nations, then any merchandise passing across an “international boundry” would be subject to customs inspection. As it stands they are only psuedo separate nations, and as such fall into a quagmire of legal limbo. Its a very messy situation. The crappy thing is that snuff takers dependant on mail orders for their snuff are caught in the crossfire of this ongoing squabble, mainly becuase of two words in the whole damn PACT act that define smokeless tobacco as “intended to be placed in the oral or nasal cavity”. If those two words were removed in an ammendment or an exemption inserted, everything would be hunky dory again.

A Petition (To Get PACT Reversed?) found the link on lilbrown’s website

That is for a Pipe tobacco tax, not PACT.

still might be worth signing.

I will sign it whistler! I am all riled up again… d+mn it back to the word association thread to cool off…

This is all new to me. I have been using snuff on and off for about 25 years. I have quite a few old cans, bottles, containers of snuff. My last mail order was in 2007. I was looking through my collection and figured I’d order some new snuff. And I find out that I can’t anymore. Doe’s anyone know who ships to NJ even with this bull manure PACT? This is crazy.

Any online retailer. I’m closing this, it is an old thread and old news. Hardly anything has changed for the consumer.