I’ve read about the process of fermentation, where hands of cured (hot air or smoked) tobacco are laid up in piles with a thermometer inside so a somewhat natural fermentation process like a compost heap can occur. In some cases, a second fermentation stage, perhaps leaves in a liquid pressed in barrels is used. I’m told this is very common in the cigar industry, both for filler and wrap. Is fermentation (1 or 2 stage) often used in nasal snuffs, and if so… does it tend to be used in specific types?

German Schmalzlers

@GOHAWKS Cool info, thanks! I found info about their fermentation. Seems quite elaborate and old-fashioned. Giant wooden kegs.

Pretty sure rappee’s are fermented too. I love the fermented tobacco’s. It gives them such a great taste!

Well, the De Kralingse line has a Virginia family and a fermented Virginia family. Hollandse Bolongaro is the plainest one of the fermented Virginias. Jaap, if you are watching this thread, plese let us know which ones are. I think all the newset ones are fermented, is this correct?

I think of Gawith Hoggath’s Kendall Brown. When completely fresh this has a slighly rancid or cheesy taste. I imagine this is cured in brine rather than fermented, not sure about the technicalities. It settles down into a lovely moist dark brown snuff with a texture not far from the schmalzlers. I find it preferable and wouldn’t be without it.

@Xander: The newest: Mettaijer snuif and Gingerbread snuff are non fermented but finer than the other Virginia’s. Macuba, Pompadour, Prins Regent and the Choco (not the Choco-L) snuffs are also non fermented Virginia’s. Hollandse Bolongaro, Bon Bon and Musino tabak are fermented Virginia’s. The St. Omer No. 1 karotten are still fermenting, they also are of the Virginia type. Jaap Bes.

One negative to consider is that fermentation is what creates nitrosamines, the primary carcinogenic substances in tobacco. Caveat emptor.

Does that mean there are no nitrosamines in SP etc? Any further info would be appreciated. Does toasting produce this stuff?

Black and brown rappee is made by pounding dark tobacco(s) in brine like cut tobacco. It is then left to ferment - sometimes for as long as several years - in cool rooms after being compressed into batches of several hundredweights each. Thereafter it is pulverised and remoistened with brine. Traditionally it is gros (coarse) and moist and unscented. The method of production is known in the trade as the Paris Method because of its one-time associations with France. The title is something of a misnomer because the Royal Factory was at Morlaix, not Paris. (text largely pilfered from the thread on “What is Rappee”) During the 1960s and 70s the only UK company that used this type of prepared tobacco (as far as memory serves) was Fribourg & Treyer. They had black and brown rappee as well as several heavy black and scented snuffs such as Santo Domingo and Princes, which of course are still available today. As far as I’m aware the only 100% genuine black and brown rappees made in Britain via the Paris Method today are the two by Samuel Gawith. The health implications of fermented snuff is discussed in 'Food and its Adulterations’ by Arthur Hill Hassall, which was published in 1855. This class of snuff was viewed as potentially hazardous to health since manufacturers adulterated it more liberally in defiance of Excise regulations. This is Hassall’s description of rappee: "… it is heaped up in a trough, and again moistened thoroughly, or “ sauced,” as it is termed, and allowed to remain a considerable time, by which means a certain degree of fermentation is induced ; it is turned with a shovel from time to time, and re-liquored as the moisture evaporates. The flavour of the snuff depends much upon the extent to which the fermentation is allowed to proceed ; this fermentive process also adds greatly to its depth of colour. After the snuff is thus far manufactured, the salts, or alkaline salts, allowed by the Excise regulations, are added. The suit is said to be chiefly employed to ensure the preservation of the snuff from mouldiness, and to cause it to retain its moisture; while the alkaline salts are used to increase its pungency; at the same time they add considerably to the weight of the snuff. "

It’s well documented that the adulteration of foodstuffs and beverages was extensively practiced in former times. ‘Malnutrition’ takes on a more sinister, more literal sense. I am not surprised to hear that snuffs might be ‘cut’ in the same way that illicit drugs are said to be frequently cut with harmful substances today. I would be interested to know whether the fermentation process itself increases the nitrosamines in rappees beyond the levels to be found in unfermented snuffs, as PipenSnusnSnuff alleges. What evidence of this is there, I wonder. I suppose that the levels of nitrosamines are considerably higher in my burning pipe tobacco, than in the fermented snuff I use. However this may be, thank you PhilipS for the description of rappee production. Fascinating.

@snuffmiller thank you for the clarification. I enjoy both styles and I think they fit their respective flavorings well.

My knowledge of the precise chemical process by which fermentation creates nitrosamines is extremely limited, coming mostly from what I’ve read about snus. It’s my understanding that snus is very low in nitrosamines, because it’s pasteurized. The pasteurization kills off the bacteria responsible for fermentation. And yes, it is the fermentation process that creates nitrosamines. That much is clear to me.

Interesting. Korean Kimchi, pickled and fermented cabbage, is said to be a very healthy product, so I understand. It is not fermentation that produces these ‘nitrosomines’ but paricularly the fermentation of tobacco. Is that right I wonder?

I think it does with Kimchi too. I think it does with any pickled product. The thing is veggetables help fight the effects of nitrosimines. You know all the vitamins and minerals being good for you and the like.

Uncontrolled fermentation at high temperatures creates nitrosamines, Longhorn and TImberwolf are fermented but still have fairly low nitrosamine levels. Soaking tobacco in brine sounds um interesting. Pasteurization just kills bacteria it doesn’t lower nitrosamines it actually increases them if you heat it high enough.

Pipensnusnsnuff Thanks for that info. I’ve had an interesting read. I think I’d only be concerned if a real mainstay consumed daily in quantity was high. I like a pickled herring - but not four of them every day…

Anyone have any info on the salt concentrations of the brining ‘sauce’ described by snuffgrinder? Any ingredients other than salt?

"Anyone have any info on the salt concentrations of the brining ‘sauce’ described by snuffgrinder? " Would vary but according to J&H Wilsons - “After grinding and the addition of salts (about 12%) and moisture (12%), 400 lb lots of the powder or flour, as it is known, are tipped into the dressing (or sieving machine.” from ‘The Manufacture of Snuff’ 1981 The book above is too detailed, but a very good (albeit brief) description on additives and types of manufacture (Carrot, Rapid, Paris, Schmalzler) are discussed in the article by Alois Poschl titled ‘The Manufacture of Snuff’ Scroll down to page 539. This is well worth reading.

Ah, more information. Very nice to know about these things.

Snuffgrinder, you are just what is says - a snuffgrinder. My guess is that your snuffs are very good. Are you in the UK? It would be far more expensive for me to make snuff from loose tobacco, which might be smoked and is therefore taxed at the much higher rate. Any more info about your ownsnuff making, such as the choice of leaf, where you get it and what the end product is like. very interesting.

Indeed, thanks, both PhilipS and snuffgrinder! Sadly I’ve only got about a pound of tobacco from my 14 plants last season, so I’ll have to scale down your recipe a bit ( ), but your tips are much appreciated!

Snuffgrinder, I admire you. I see you working away there like some alchemist in search of the that great snuff sort: ‘Philospher’s Stone’. What are you aiming for? Scotch? SP?, or something a little different?

How long does the heat fermentation process last?

Wow, I thought it took a lot longer to ferment tobacco than that. Thats really cool you work on fermentation as opposed to just grinding up leaves. Have you ever made any Black Rappe? Thats my most favorite fermented tobacco.

Im sorry, that last post I made was for snuffgrinder.

I’m sure it WOULD take alot longer if the heat wasn’t increased… but doing so and adding moisture GREATLY speeds up the process.

How different are the results of toasting vs heat fermentation? I sort of scorched one batch during drying and the taste (and smoke) got very mellow. Is that expected?

Makes sense. Thanks.