I am aware from reading posts on this site, that snuffs such as the coarse ground, unscented rappees made by Samuel Gawith, are made from tobacco fermented in brine.

I would be grateful if anyone could tell me if they know of coarse ground natural, unscented snuff made from tobacco fermented in the old fashioned method, without the use of brine, potash, lye or other chemical additives ?

“I would be grateful if anyone could tell me if they know of coarse ground natural, unscented snuff made from tobacco fermented in the old fashioned method, without the use of brine, potash, lye or other chemical additives.” As you probably know, brine (just salt-water, sometimes called liquor or sauce) moderates fermentation, preventing the vegetable matter from becoming putrefied. By the old fashioned method of fermentation you presumably mean the Carrot Method, where the carrots were pressed together in rolls until they finally coalesced. This is certainly the oldest and most time-consuming method but is, as far as I’m aware, obsolete … and has been for the best part of two centuries. Which snuffs do you believe currently contain potash or lye?

Thankyou PhilipS.

I believe the carotte method is what I meant.

I understand Sternecker makes his snuff from " Mangoles" which is tobacco fermented in much the same way as carottes, but that snuff is a mild schmalzter, as I am sure you know.

As for as which snuffs contain lye or potash, I may be wrong, but I was sure I had read somewhere that lye was used in the manufacture of NSU and Molens advertises the use of both on their website.: 

The “flue -cured” Virginia tobacco undergoes further fermentation due to addition of ammonium chloride and potash.

“De “flue cured” Virginia tabak ondergaat door toevoeging van o.a. salmiak en potas een verdere vergisting” Not just Dutch, but double Dutch to me (I’m just glad that almost everyone in the Netherlands speaks perfect English). The translation (as you pointed out) is: The “flue -cured” Virginia tobacco undergoes further fermentation due to addition of ammonium chloride and potash. Surely ammonium chloride isn’t lye, which is highly caustic and used to clean ovens. Wonder if this ‘potash’ is an alkaline salt of the sort used in UK snuff manufacture? Jaap, the Molens snuffman is a member here and might explain more. As the Molens site also says - “Type Karotten Snuff This snuff is produced with the historical “Karotten” method. After the fermented tobacco leaves are tied into bundles, follows a period of at least 6 months fermentation at low temperature.” http://www.snuifmolenswebshop.nl/Webwinkel-Category-525429/Type-Karotten-Snuff.html - I’m obviously wrong in saying that the Carrot method is obsolete. It isn’t!

Thankyou PhilipS.

You are quite right - ammonium chloride is not lye.

Lye is sodium hydroxide, although it does appear to be used in tobacco fermentation.

However, in answer to my original question, many thanks for pointing me in the direction of Jaap.

Jaap Bes has reported from tme to time his progress on re-creating a traditional carotte fermented snuff, known as “St. Omer.” One of our members visited the mills a few months ago and posted some pictures of it in progress. Surely it must be nearly ready by now. I know I’ve been anticipating its release. It must be two years since he began work on it. I’m sure Snuffhouse will be the first place to recieve news of it, so check in regularly, and likely Jaap will chime in here too.

 @PhilipS ans Johnny: In the oldest books I read dating back to the end of the 17th begin 18th century there no mention of fermentation. Tobacco is flavoured with flowers, in putting the flowers directly between the tobacco leaves which are lateron ground and sieved. Tobacco leaves are also flavoured with watery extracts of flowers and carefully dried, ground and sieved afterwards. Bisam and musk are ground with sugar and mixed with ground tobacco.  

Salmiak is  indeed amoniumchlorid and Potash is potassiumcarbonate.

I think the fermentation of snuff tobacco started in the 18th century in order to prevent detoriation. In a Dutch dictionary of 1802 the Karot as a bundle of tobacco leaves is already mentioned.

At the moment we are chopping the St. Omer karotten what will take some more time because the tobacco is still very humid and as there is no heating in the mill there is hardly any evaporation at the moment, but we still working on it. In the meantime we are going to produce some more “historical” snuffs.

Jaap Bes.

Excellent news, Jaap. Progress is progress. Also perhaps someone has mistaken lye for lime? I believe lime is used in many Indian snuffs and perhaps others.

@Xander: Lye is NaOH = caustic soda and lime are salts of Calcium: CaCO3; Ca(OH)2 etc.

Jaap Bes.

@snuffmiller Yes. I mean that the confusiion may have arisen from the similarity in the sound of their names.

Wonderful to hear that Jaap is creating a true carotte and other such historical snuffs. I would love to try some.

@snuffmiller Keep up the good work! can’t wait.

@snuffmiller -  God bless you one and all for all of your hard work and explorations of things gone by.

This blast from the past is a preview of greatness to come. In no particular order of importance, Johnny is now Sir Walter Scott, maker of some of the finest snuffs on the planet that are also blasts from the past. Amazing what can happen in three years. Three cheers for Lundy Foot. Jaap Bes is also a craftsman of the highest order. I’m currently chain spooning St. Omer No 1. Hard to fathom that this was a prototype three years ago. Great with strong black coffee I’ve read that Salmiac is also known as “salty licorice”; licorice flavored with Ammonium Chloride. It also appears in a vodka based liqueur. Ammonium Chloride is slightly acidic with a pH of around 5.0 (4.6-6.0). Potassium Carbonate is a strong alkaline with a pH around 11.0; combining the two in water would result in a slightly alkaline solution, so I’m guessing the combination is geared toward enhancing inherent scent/flavor by chemical reaction with the tobacco during fermentation. There may also be some decay retardant properties to prevent the tobacco from turning into compost. The slightly high pH would make a little more nicotine available. Long winded again, sorry. Anyway, as I take a few more spoonfuls of St Omer, I detect no licorice, salty or otherwise, so I’m thinking Jaap is using just Ammonium Chloride in this wonderful snuff. I’m getting pure, high quality, expertly handled tobacco with no added scent. Very nice.

@chefdaniel: We use both Potassium Carbonate and Ammonium Chloride, wine lees and sugar in the sauce to start the fermentation of the tobacco leaves after that we stop this primary fermentation with kitchen salt. Then preparing the karotten and stock them for at least 6 month to undergo a slow secondary fermentation. Jaap Bes.

Thank you Jaap. I wonder if residual yeast from a whisky mash would work as a substitute for wine lees? I’ve got access to Potassium Carbonate and Ammonium Chloride. What would the % be of the total formula?