http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-4081 They spout that it is to prevent cigarette trafficking, but they slyly included all forms of tobacco, except cigars. This is terrible legislation, and must be stopped!! What can we do??

It never became law. It’s just a law to make sure that taxes are paid. With the current plate of work in front on Congress, I don’t think we have anything to worry about. Oh… what do you expect from a guy with the last name Wiener.

He he - in Danmark a “Wienerbroed” is the same as a “Danish” in American English :o)))) Mr Pastry.

in america it means hotdog (or more popularly the part of the anatomy that looks most like a sausage.)

Recent things I have been reading, is that most people are believing this is going to happen. This means shops like MrSnuff, Nicotinerush, the various snus shops, and all of the them, will be forced to close up. Creating more unemployment, and leading more people to smoke. I haven’t commented much on this, but more people who follow this, like on snuscentral are expecting this to pass. Labelling internet tobacco buyers as terrorists. I guess this means those who pass this are Mullahs. I don’t know what will happen, I’m pretty stocked on snus and snuff for a long while. I think a local shop here sells General Snus. I have often wondered what could be an alternative to tobacco snus and snuff, it seems to me tea would have some possibility, since it is a dried leaf, and while it doesn’t have nicotine in it, could it be added? but it does have caffine, which gives an effect as well. I would try a tea based snus and snuff. But it does sadden me how the USA has gone. I knew Obama was a bad idea.

Not really a comment on the quality of beliefs or any value judgement. I honestly think McCain would not have lasted long as president. I really think he would have died in office in a short amount of time. Palin would have been likely to quit. So I guess I’am turning this into a social studies class and asking who would have been or president if we didn’t get obama?

There is a similar thread on this legislation. You can search 1147 or follow this link for more on this topic. 1147 snuffhouse thread Here also is a link to the Senate committee that was looking at this legislation: Senate bill 1147Many of us on snuffhouse sent emails or letter to the members of these various committees and I urge each of you to keep your eyes on this process and take part in the democratic process by contacting your representatives about this legislation.

Well, H.R. 1676 passed the House and moved to the Senate as S. 1147. But it’s been rotting in committee since then, and they reckon maybe 11-05 they might dredge it up and take a look at it. But really, I feel even if they DID pass it, it would be about as unenforceable as prohibiting one from shaking twice. Our post office budget is stretched to the limit (hello, possible stoppage of Saturday mail), now who exactly will fund, or even vote to fund, a tobacco-sniffing machine or some special postal inspectors to ferret out tiny packages from NicRush or what have you? Plus, this is perennial legislation, one nutso or another has been trying to get this dog passed since 1997… But as many have said, it would be a politically unpopular move right now. The natives are restless in the U S of A. Jobs and housing are down, the cost of gas is up, Iraq and Afghanistan are still happening, and the last thing on anybody’s mind right now is if somebody paid their taxes on a few tins of snuff or snus. Even the most rabid anti-smoker couldn’t care less if a fellow manages to order himself a carton of Camels while ducking the tax; all he cares is that said fellow doesn’t light up around him. What the ridiculously flaccid corporate media can’t tell you is, there’s a very big current of change simmering in the average American psyche. It’s the same tough-guy/girl survival mentality that got the US through the Great Depression. We are hunkering down for a cold winter, and the last thing anybody wants to do is cut off the supplies of 'baccy. On the odd chance that S.1147 actually passes, it’ll be page-8 news, nobody will know how to enforce it, and we’ll roll merrily along…

Just had another thought. The RYO crowd struck a beautiful blow against SCHIP, for example. RYO tobacco tax shot up 2400%? No problem! Use pipe tobacco. And I don’t mean pipe tobacco. I mean “pipe” tobacco. Go to your local smokeshop and look at all the bags of “pipe” tobacco that are selling for $17.00/lb. Seems a bit, uh, uncased. And dry. And unflavored (or menthol). And ribbon or shag cut. Hehehe. I was damn near tempted to start smoking again…

This is a bad act, however, it does not make shipping tobacco illegal. My understanding from a brief read is that it makes it illegal through the US Mail (not UPS or Fedex) and requires record keeping and age verification for other common carries and the shops that use them. So this will likely make prices go up and some shops will struggle, but some mail order suppliers will continue on, I hope. Here is the address of the summary for those interested: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-1147&tab=summary

QUOTE: “I knew Obama was a bad idea.” What exactly does that have to do with the PACT Act? Obama did not write or introduce this bill. It’s been kicking around Congress since the Shrub administration. Have you seen how many Republicans are on board with this? Philip Morris USA has deep pockets. Hence the “bipartisan” support. BTW, McCain himself has voted in Philip Morris’ favor on the FDA issue. Do you honestly think he’s going to vote against this when it comes to the Senate floor (which will probably be sooner rather than later)? Any doubt that he would not sign this if he were president? QUOTE: " My understanding from a brief read is that it makes it illegal through the US Mail (not UPS or Fedex)…" Well, UPS, FedEx and DHL have already publicly declared that they will “voluntarily” comply with the PACT Act, should it pass. It’s a lousy bill, but then so was the Patriot Act, and we’re still stuck with its catastrophic consequences. I wish I could feel optimistic that this will fail, but given the manner in which it sailed through the House, I am quite pessimistic.

You as a citizen of the Union of Amerikan Socialist States I find this kind of talk insulting and ignorant. This has absolutley nothing to do with socialism.

_Union of Amerikan Socialist States_Sounds like an attempt to turn USA into USSR. Not only an epic fail, but un-American. FAIL

I understand the insinuation. The USSR was never socialist either, though they claimed to be. I would prefer that we kept this disucssion on-topic and not digress into political mudslinging.

@Xander: Thanks, you are correct. But it takes some dealing with that matter to find out. A work some people let the media do for themselves. Ok, some thoughts on this (and I hope you don´t mind the lack of proper english). Yes, the role of the Philip Morris company is, unfortunately, a very sad one. They´ve supported numerous negative ideas on banning and/or hurting the position of tobacco related products. Most of these were even brought up by them. As far as I know, it´s just the same in the USA, as it is here in Europe. They want to set their #1 position in concrete. The growing markets are all in the so called 2nd and 3rd world. Nothing more to gain in the industrialized countries. As far as it concerns them, the ideal market would consist of cigarettes only and these would be Marlboro Red and Gold, although they would be in the same white non-labeled package and not on display. You´d have to take a long walk to get them, as they´d only be available at certified tobacco stores. (and no, it´s not a socialist company, be asured) We´ve had the so called “pseudo pipe tobacco” thing here, too. Went well until the amounts reached a considerable level. Then it was declared as RYO and taxed like that. Although the quality is inferior. After 2 months those brands were gone from the market completely.

The reason cigars would be exempted, is that only the well-heeled can afford them, more so every day, and it’s only the low hanging fruit that need to be inconvenienced. Cigarettes and chew have been soundly discredited, snuff is an off-the-radar eccentricity along with pipe tobacco, and is, like all nicotine use in these people’s eyes, a BAD thing. Like the alcohol temperance movement, there is no such thing as moderation in self-righteous condemnation. I have a decent amount of pipe tobacco, part of it acquired in ‘fear of the loonies hysteria,’ stocking up for Armageddon. Then, I decided not to stress about my stress reliever. If they manage to get tobacco banned, c’est la vie. I doubt it, anyway. Besides we’ll all move to California, as if they don’t already have enough trouble, and get prescriptions for medical marijuana to assuage our loses. Rather the big sticks are going to be in trying to get and keep healthcare insurance with a positive cotinine drug test. From whatever source.

@ Red Star: the way you describe Phillip Morris’ influence makes the legislation more akin to facsism. A far cry indeed from socialism. Of course its written to benefit them and guide us back to cigarettes. As to snuff being off the radar, that is indeed true. However the way the legislation is written it defines snuff to include the nasal types. This, I’m sure, is written in naiveté to be inclusive rather than as a deliberate stike. The best option at this time is to write to your senators in an attempt to educate them. The whole agenda of this bill is to recoup lost taxes from interstate/Indian reservation sales and not as a public health bill. If I have to pay tax on snuff, I’m ok with that. Suggest to your senators to either exempt nasal snuff from the bill or to allow out of state merchants to collect your state taxes for you. Also suggest that if mail order is an underage concern that ID verification process be used rather than banning mail order sales. I have a letter that I wrote posted in this thread: senate-bill-1147 that any of you may use (please do not plagarize) for your own letters. I am inclined, though, to agree with cstokes in that this bill is likely to languish in comittee forever. Most bills in the senate never even get voted on in comittee let alone reach a full senate vote.

Where I live there is no supply of snuff. If they cut off all of us in the boonies we will have to have an underground railroad of some kind.

Control, Control, Control, Who decides what is best for you? A bunch of over stuffed suits? I am tired of “corporationism” and its influence in my life… So who decides? Can I decide what is best for me?

QUOTE: “I am inclined, though, to agree with cstokes in that this bill is likely to languish in comittee forever. Most bills in the senate never even get voted on in comittee let alone reach a full senate vote.” Agree all you wish, but the fact of the matter is that S.1147 is being voted on this Thursday, November 5, 2009, at the Executive Business Meeting of the Senate Judiciary Committee: http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/hearing.cfm?id=4157 Who knows what will happen on Thursday. It could very well languish, or it could be quickly passed onto the Senate floor. Sadly, no serious opposition is expected to transpire.

This is not about politics. It may be about control. It is definitely about Phillip Morris protecting their market and TAXES! With Gov revenue falling this is a way to make sure the tobacco taxes are paid. Follow the money…

I think you get it bigmick. Anyway, as it seems I was wrong and this is going to a comittee vote on Thursday, I am going to make a cup of tea and write to Sen. Kaufman again. At least he’s not a co-sponsor so his vote is not yet committed. With any luck we can get an amendment that will exempt snuff or change the wording to exclude it.

There’s a good editorial at SunsCentral on this topic: http://www.snuscentral.org/snusnus/legislation/312-pact-act.html The PACT Act is 100% all about protecting a monopoly by Philip Morris. How anyone can call this “socialism” is beyond me. The only reason cigars are excluded from the PACT Act is due to the fact that cigar companies and distributors actually have a bit of clout that could offer some serious opposition to this bill in Congress. Nasal snuff, inasmuch as it even exists in the eyes of Congress, is simply “smokeless tobacco” –- an expanding market Philip Morris is now very much interested in having to itself as well. Altria (parent corporation of Philip Morris) purchased U.S. Smokeless in 2008. (Yes, Rooster, Bruton, Carhart’s, Red Seal and Standard are now Philip Morris products.) The major cigarette companies know very well that their future lies with smokeless tobacco –- a market they had absolutely no involvement or interest in until very recently. As far as they are concerned, “nasal” snuff (I am fairly certain that 99.9% of the people who purchase American scotch snuffs actually use it orally) is an anachronistic poor bastard stepchild legacy product about which they have absolutely no interest. (As far as imported “real” nasal snuff goes, it is such a miniscule part of the market, it’s irrelevant in their eyes.) What they *are* truly interested in are the “newer” products, such as snus and dissolvable tobacco. Philip Morris USA has just now introduced Marlboro Snus, which they intend to push hard. Do they have an interest in cutting off the supply of imported Swedish snus? You better believe that they do. My Swedish snus consumption has fallen to near zero, around one portion every couple of days. (Having tried Camel Snus, I have no faith that the major American tobacco firms will ever produce an even halfway decent snus.) Once the Swedish snus in my freezer is gone, that’s it for me. My only plan is to stock up 2000 or so grams of Wilson’s Irish High Toast No. 22, which ought to last me for quite some time. And once that and the rest of the collection is finally depleted, well, either I make do with whatever I can pick up in European shops during my travels, or the occasional tin of W.E. Garrett that I may be able to find locally. If I have to eventually quit all tobacco use altogether, so be it. I am not going to jump through hoops and/or pay exorbitant prices just to enjoy snuff.

It’s corporatism. Michael Moore was on Larry King the other night about his movie Capitalism, and Ron Paul was on too, and he was explaining the beefs Moore has with “capitalism” is not capitalism, but corporatism.

5th November would be a good day to put a bomb under it

haha! I hadn’t noticed the coincidence. Guy Fawkes is not well known here though.

Guy Fawkes is well known in the firearms community. There are a lot of crossover in the tactics used against guns and tobacco. Seems a lot of you guys notice snuscentral… join in, we have snus forums there too.And read my articles. LOL

Does anyone know about the snuff supply in Vancouver, British Columbia. I just moved to WA and I’m about 4.5 hours away from B.C. I haven’t found snuff here locally yet, but I plan to take a trip to Vancouver in the spring. After I visit “new amsterdam”, I’ll be looking for snuff

I wrote many senators on the list back in June, even those that were not from AZ, where I lived at the time. Anyway, I just got a response from McCain on Tuesday (10/27). It was clear that he hadn’t actually read what I wrote and he failed to mention what his position on the legislation was. Here is his response: Dear Mr. (Name redacted to protect my anonymity) Thank you for contacting me regarding S. 1147, the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009, otherwise known as the “PACT Act.” I appreciate knowing your views on this important issue. The PACT Act would prohibit the sale of cigarettes and smokeless tobacco products to consumers through the U.S. mail, which has often been used to evade state excise taxes on tobacco products as required by federal law. Additionally, this legislation would provide greater powers and resources to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) to enforce these laws. As you may know, S. 1147 was introduced on May 21, 2009 and was referred to the Judiciary Committee for review. Please know that I understand your concerns with this legislation and will keep your views in mind should it be considered by the full Senate. Again, thank you for taking the time to contact me. Please feel free to contact me on this or any other issue. Sincerely, John McCain United States Senator

Technically speaking, I’m not “card carrying”. I merely hate to see socialism misconstrued. If people choose to agree with it or disagree with it, that’s their own business. I would hope, on a personal note, that they know what it is before they pass judgement, but again, that’s their business. Sure anyone can post whatever they think whenever they want. However, for the forum to remain civil, its best not to throw out politicized epithets and presume everyone agrees with it. Not one of us here are going to see eye to eye on every politcal issue 100% of the time. We have a common cause here: the need to protect our ability to buy our snuff online and through the mail. Lets not divide ourselves on what political philosophy is most to blame for the current issue at hand.

@ snuffegnugen: at least you got a response. Thanks for sharing it.

The crux of the issue is that the economy is firmly in the toilet, co-incidentally driven there by the self-righteous in greed ‘fiscally conservative’ anti-intellectual semi-retarded right, and anything and everything that can be done to raise tax revenues has to be done. It’s impractical for online vendors to collect and manage taxes for all 50 states plus territories. The problem of internet sales undermining local taxes is not unique to tobacco. If their rationale is to protect tax revenues for locals, the question that needs to be posed is, what about all internet commerce? That’s our best defense, not what type of tobacco we’re using. They’re not listening to ours is better, when they’ve already decided that none is best. If this comes to pass before I can move from podunkum small city, USA, no different from boonies unavailability, I’ll have to quit. We have bigger problems than tobacco to worry about. Keeping it real, our friend Bill (Clinton), finished selling the American working man up the river, started by our perpetual hero, Ronnie, his bobbing head aquiver. Challenging the idea that ‘little’ people don’t matter, a belief elevated to American religion over time, is a much bigger problem, as shown by the current healthcare debate. I am my brother’s keeper versus everyman for himself. It’s entirely asinine that of developed countries, the idea that everyone should have healthcare is such a shocker. Judge by our fruit. The problem with the American healthcare system is the religion of greed that we as Americans have embraced. Bumpkins. Rubes. And talk radio. O my.

It “might” be like how foreign(to the US) companies can sell perscription drugs, but the legal end is not them selling it, but a US customer receiving it. Anyway, I hope all this doesn’t amount to anything, but it seems alot of people think it will.

Politics aside, I highly doubt that any politician, future or present, gives a damn whether we snuff of not, which makes me sad. @Roderick, I wasn’t aware of the contracts you spoke of, but I was thinking that there is no way the US can keep other countries from shipping here. This legislation is trash. The whole thing makes me sick.

I’m guessing tobacco retailers would be exempt from this. If this happens, and I can’t order snuff from businesses myself, I’m going to speak with some of the stores I deal with that also sell tobacco products, and see if I can bribe them into making snuff orders for me.

Xander forgive me but I really must ask the question… You state that your not a “technically” a card carrying member of the socialist party… But do you deny being a member of the socialist/communist party? If you were to read what I said, you would see that i was talking about “rights” and being “taxed” to exorcise those rights… If you were to read some of the summary of this bill it is about “taxes” setting up a data base, expanding the B.A.T.F.E arm of injustice, preventing you and I from exchanging in tobacco trades or from selling to each other by the postal service… Yes all very controlling, yes all very disturbing to those of us who still believe, we should be able to choose for ourselves what is best for us… As I read and understand this bill it should not affect us from getting our tobacco products from those we already do business with unless they are not dealers… As you will see if you read further… "Exempts from such prohibition: (1) cigars; and (2) mailings within Alaska or Hawaii; or (3) mailings for business purposes between legally operating tobacco businesses, and by individuals for noncommercial, nonbusiness, and non-money making purposes. So as you can see right there it will make illegal to use the postal service for you to sell me snuff that you no longer want… The purpose i see from this is to begin to make it even more restrictive on the under ground economy… Now this is just merely an expansion to legislation that already exists so i would have to go read them… To be honest though, I have no interest … Then you make the assertion that somehow i misconstrue socialism is complete nonsensical, so please be more forthcoming when you assert such a claim… The mere fact that you try to inform me of what is appropriate is socialist… So yes what this bill has the potential of doing by means of control can be construed as socialist or even nationalist/fascist which are both enemies to a Republic… Control is an adversary to a Free people… Btw you might find reading Pace v Burgess or even Shoe v U.S. interesting reading material since the both deal with export taxes I think Pace v Burgess has something to do with tobacco… Heck I might as well read them again too…

So aren`t we here to talk about snuff? This kind of discussion never ends (at least never ends well)

I have never denied being a socialist. I’ve made it known before. I’m not at this time affilated with any of the several socialist parties we have in this country. I am one in an ideological sense like Senator Sanders, who claims to be a democractic socialist. Thank you for asking. Just for the record, socialism is not about controlling people. Totalitarianism is about controlling people. Socialism is about ensuring equality, justice, and democracy and providing for people in need. I do get miffed when people mix the two. The Soviets ruined socialism’s good name by being totalitarian. Its offensive to me when some use the word in a derogative sense, especially when they associate it with soviet “communism.” I understand that people do it, maybe I shouldn’t care. I bite my tounge a lot, perhaps I should do it more. Sometimes its hard to let things go. As far as the bill goes, perhaps you are right. Perhaps that reads as an out. I read the whole bill over again last night and didn’t see it. I know your angry about this bill, I am too. This bill has very little to do with ideology. Peace.

If we go with the grade school definition, socialism is when the government owns all or the majority of heavy industry, and typically has things like high taxes, universal health care, and free university, along with extensive social services. Free enterprise is allowed for small business and general commerce (ie: everything save healthcare, education, energy and public works) So, even by the definition currently given to fifth graders, making it illegal to buy tobacco online isn’t socialist in the least. If anything, this is a thoroughly capitalistic move, as it aims to ensure that businesses in the US become the only legal source for any tobacco consumed in the country, aside from what people might buy on holidays abroad. In fact, it’s more reminiscent of the United States shortly after gaining independence than it is of the USSR. We kept protective tariffs sky high here for aeons before we finally started to realise it was hurting the country and opened up to trade from the UK. France, the UK, Norway, or Sweden are all democratic countries with socialist tendencies. The USSR, China, Cuba, and Libya are/were all totalitarian states centred on a cult of personality. To step in as the card carrying socialist on the board, it was a dumb joke. To accuse Xander of being “socialist and controlling” simply because he corrected your misconstrued concept of the term socialist’s definition is laughable at best. Before going off on the concept, I’d recommend you familiarize yourself with what it really is, and perhaps even read some of the works of socialist political theorists or philosophers. Otherwise, you may well find yourself in the same position as creationists who say evolution is just a theory, so to believe in it is a matter of faith, whilst the scientists try to stifle their laughter. Oh dear, I just told you what to read. Someone best hold me back, I’m likely to start shipping people off to the gulags if I’m not restrained. /.end rant/ Edit:@ap+midnightmosesuk: If everyone can manage to be civil about it, it may turn out okay. However, I do recall a computer science writer or something similar made a joke “Law of the Internet.” Actually, I found it. It’s called Godwin’s Law. It states, “As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” So, yeah, the longer these things run, the more likely someone starts name calling. @ibild: Since I realise it may sound like I’m picking on you or calling you stupid, I’ll just put this in here so everyone knows. I’m not trying to say that at all. Up and down the eastern coast, the majority of people I’ve met seem to have the same conception of socialism as you. I feel like this is almost an unavoidable result of the Cold War, and the unfortunate fact that many dictatorial governments use the term socialist to try and make them seem nice. I’m willing to discuss this as long as anyone who gets involved promises to be civil, but once the name calling starts, I’m out.

Fair enough… Are we discussing a State controlled or a nationalist view point of socialism? I suppose that i do treat communism and socialism as one in the same, As for Cuba, Russia and the like totalitarianism is what they turned into… Socialism: Websters dictionary 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

The idea of survival of the fittest, that there is a bell-shaped curve, and that, by the laws of nature, the weak are to be plowed under, and the strong to prevail and prosper in a Calvinistic here and now, has been at odds throughout history with the concept of a community of mankind, where justice, and equality, are divinely endowed, and not the province of some to determine over others. That what we do now, has value and meaning beyond this life. Feudalism. Monarchism. Fascism. Communism. All predicated upon the idea that a certain segment of the population, in our more recent trickle-down paradigm, the wealthy, are to be coddled and supplicated, while the less fortunate should go peacefully into the night. By whatever labels, there are people who care about mankind in general terms, searching for ‘the Good,’ in the terminology of Plotinus, and people who embrace an innocent heart of darkness centered upon their narrow self interest. There are fascists who thought they were making the world a better place by shoving us into the ovens. Their contemporaries are ‘just doing their job,’ smugly comfortable with 45 million uninsured, and another 20 plus million under-insured (useless insurance) in America. The worst infant mortality rate in the developed world. Sixty percent of bankruptcies involving a significant illness. The provider and legal side has been plagued by fraud and a pigs-at-the-trough mentality that preceded the terminal cynicism of the insurance industry committed now to just not paying. By any means necessary. A jolly match across the net. At least in the healthcare industry there are still those standing for ethics and professionalism. In general business, if you’re not willing to lie (call it marketing), you’re a slacker who doesn’t want to work. I’m thrown to thinking they lack intelligence, mental midgets who met a mother, but the reality may be that they just lack heart. It’s conservative to embrace Darwinism on the one hand, and Creationism when it serves to justify on the other. Strip all the conversation away: They just don’t care. About you. And, have managed to badger and cajole anyone who can be labeled, as lesser if you do. I hold them in that same regard. Labels are easy to throw, but their inhumanity has become their definition. lol, How’s that for a rant.

Guys, thank you for the defence, but I feel I have made peace with ibild.

Some brilliant comments, I must admit. Quite a reading pleasure and surprising dephth of knowledge. Thx guys!

I’m a Libertarian Geniocratist National Socialist. So, I’m way out off the cuff. But whatever we ascribe to personally, based on our own studies, and understandings, the system is set up as it is, and we don’t have much power in the big picture.

Redstar, I agree… Some very interesting people with some very good opinions… Btw Xander i will get back with you after i get home from work, very interesting piece… Tom, I am a leave me the hell alone, let me dwell in my natural state if i so choose American… I should at least be free to do that!!!

Personally I view this as a way for the government to collect taxes, I hate taxes. BUT I like snuff more than I hate taxes, going out on a limb here but I think that the population of snuffhouse would feel the same way. I am unhappy about this law because it is the government interfering with my life, which I hate but I suppose that is a necessary evil, and this tax is just a matter of time. Now rather than arguing about political affiliations and beliefs does anyone have anything to say about getting by this law? I agree with tom that it will most likely be passes only 7 representatives voted against it; senate isn’t much likely to be any different. Anyway my idea is that if we somehow find a way for shops like mr.snuff and Nicotinerush to take out taxes on our orders they could continue to stay in business and we would continue to snuff all be it at a higher price. Likely have to take out state taxes as well. I really enjoy arguing politics but this isn’t in my opinion the time to argue amongst each other when out passion is in danger of being lost to a ridiculous law its time for us to unite together and accomplish something. Best regards everyone

I don’t mind paying taxes, I just don’t want the availablity to be cut.

I gave up politics about fifty years ago when I decided my opinion doesn’t change anything, but I am interested in snuff and it’s availability. If you look at the vote in the house the new anti-tobacco legislation is supported all across the political spectrum. I just want to get some snuff and pipe tobacco and will vote against anyone who gets in the way of that.

@ ibook: this law is not about a new tax. Its an enforcement lawagainst tax avoidance. Its about people unscrupulously avoiding their own state tax when buying tobacco. Mainly its aimed at cigarettes which is a huge black market. Unfortunatley the wording of the bill seems to include nasal snuff. More unfortunatley is the provision to prevent it being sent through the mail. On the surface it all looks very smart. Digging deeper, into our realm, we can see the harm it will cause us. A few changed words in the bill and all would be right with the world. I wrote two more letters the other night. I think though its probably falling on deaf ears and/or its too late. Asherael has a point. It may be possible to work with a local retailer to recieve the packages that we could still order online. That will probably increase our cost (they will want a cut), but at least we could still do business with our favorite online retailers and still have our availabilty and variety.

Here is my letter, I don’t know if it will do any good, but: Mathew (removed) (My address) Scottsbluff NE, 69361 Dear Senator Nelson, I am writing you to urge you not to pass or endorse the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009, S. 1147. This act posses a threat to American’s freedoms, I believe. It would make certain tobacco products, such as Swedish snus or nasal snuff, both European and American, virtually unobtainable to citizens. Both of these products, while not safe, are known to be safer than traditional cigarettes, and making them nearly impossible to acquire would lead more people to smoke cigarettes. Also, many find that collecting rare varieties of these products a very enjoyable past time, not unlike collecting fine wines or cigars, which I’ve noticed are exempt from this act. Pipe tobacco is also a connoisseur activity, again, like cigars, and this act would make this hobby difficult, or impossible, for responsible adults to participate in, as they would be unable to acquire their products from Internet vendors. Many responsible Internet and mail-order merchants, such as www.mrsnuff.com or Fred Stoker and Sons, Inc. would be harmed by this un-American legislation. These companies make their living by selling legal products to responsible adults, and to ban mailing tobacco products would send many of these fine people out of business. This is unacceptable, to me, in the current economic, as it would create more unemployment. If the concern is over paid taxes, I urge you to consider a method to assure that taxes are paid on Internet orders and mail orders. Similarly, if the concern is over under-age sales, then a system to verify ages needs to be implemented, perhaps a system similar to the one used to do background checks on citizens purchasing firearms. Making it illegal to ship tobacco will not only hurt these fine merchants, but also damage the United States Postal service, which is already suffering from the poor economic conditions. Furthermore, this act would make it increasingly difficult for consumers to acquire native grown tobacco cigarettes, and force citizens to purchase only mass-produced cigarettes that are highly processed and commercialized. This act would serve only to harm American growers, American merchants, and even our own Postal Service, as well as deny responsible adults from enjoying their hobbies, as well as ensuring their dependence on more dangerous, mass produced tobacco cigarettes. Again, I find this unacceptable, and I urge you to vote against this act, and convince your fellow senators to do so, as well. I greatly appreciate your time and consideration in this issue. Sincerely, Mr. Mathew (***) I sent pretty much the same one to the other senator, so we’ll see what kind of generalized form letters I get back. I don’t want this bill to pass. Blec.

Like snus, if an American company would actually supply us with a good comparable product, and make it available at local stores, I wouldn’t be so so miffed(not saying I am not, about the idea of this pact). To me, it’s about availability. I don’t mind paying some taxes, but all I can get locally is Bruton, and Camel Snus, well… some specialty tobacco shops are carrying General snus(haven’t seen it myself), and some Poschl and Ozona. But I still wish Carhart or Swisher would make a European style specifically nasal snuff, an SP type, a menthol.

Senator Nelson writes: Dear Mathew: Thank you for contacting me regarding the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act of 2009, S. 1147. I was glad to hear your thoughts on this legislation. As you may know, the PACT Act aims to stop the black-market smuggling of cigarettes via the internet and the U.S. Postal Service. This smuggling makes it easier for under-age smokers to buy cigarettes and prevents state and local governments from collecting revenues based on cigarette taxes. Additionally, the smugglers of cigarettes include crime syndicates and terrorists. In fact, the Government Accountability Office estimated that the terrorist-group Hezbollah profited $1.5 million from the sale of illegal tobacco from 1996-2000. The bill makes it a felony to sell tobacco in violation of any state tax law and effectively ends Internet tobacco smuggling by stopping shipments of cigarettes through the USPS. Shipping companies FedEx, UPS and DHL have already agreed not to mail tobacco. The House of Representatives passed companion legislation by a vote of 397 to 11 on May 21, 2009. The Senate bill has been referred to the Senate Judiciary Committee for consideration. Rest assured, I will keep your thoughts in mind should this or similar legislation come to the floor for debate. Thank you once again for contacting me. Your comments and concerns are an important part of the legislative process, and I encourage you to continue sharing your thoughts and ideas. Sincerely, Ben Nelson U.S. Senator This is not reassuring. I’m going to have to get used to using Pöschl’s Menthol with tobacco, as its the only thing sold around here, for an exorbitant price, of course. I’m beyond “miffed” I"m downright disgusted. As far as terrorists are concerned, that seems like big steamy BS to me. If I figure right, Hezbollah sold 62,500 packs of smokes in a four year period, and they want to punish all of us for that? What nonsense. Hostile Big Tobacco takeover indeed…

Honorably Mr. Nelson Your an Idiot… However if this bill is to pass and become law, I will now sleep more sound… The mere Idea that you are somehow now going to fill up U.S. jails with members of Hezbollah… Well I guess you can say it makes me feel fuzzy, on the inside anyway… Could you please tell me how much money is going to be spent building a case against a lone “tobacco terrorist”… How much money will then be spent on hunting down “tobacco terrorist” in these foreign countries… Then how much money is going to be spent on extradition… Could you please find out for me how much money on the initial trial, then please figure in for me how much it will cost if the “tobacco terrorist” should appeal his conviction… Then would you factor in the average sentence a “tobacco terrorist” would receive under this new law, and what that will cost us… Would you please consider the extra cost the “tobacco terrorist” would cost the U.S. Taxpayer in health-care, while he sits in some of the finest facilities the world has to offer… Then could you figure in how much we will be paying for the new division with-in B.A.T.F.E. Could you please tell me what the average salary would be for the agent who is surfing the net looking at porn, and trying to get some hezbollah member to sell him a “Smoke”… Then would you figure out how much he should have paid in taxes for his 375,000 dollars he made a yr, [maybe we should just let him pay his “fair share”] might just be cheaper on the American TAXPAYER… But just in case i have somehow left something out would you please figure that in as well??? Thank you… Personally sir I think we should just squash this proposal, then take the money that would be spent wasting the time of the American TAXPAYER, and just bail us out a few more banks, maybe pick up another car company, hell while your doing it why not purchase a few insurance company’s and a thousand hospitals… Oh yea dont forget to please purchase a scoop shovel for every American Taxpayer, so we can dig ourselves out from all the S.H.I.T. this government pours out of Washington D.C. so we can get to work on time… At least those of us that still have Jobs anyway… Thank you again… I almost forgot the little children I am with you 100% on stopping little children from getting a smoke… However I am plagued with a question, as i understand it, please forgive my ignorance I am just a mere simpleton… But when you purchase something online, dont you normally have to have a credit card or debit card? I mean Really, how many little children have you seen running around with an American Express… Cant say i have seen it myself, Thanks again for all your hard work you do for us… Respectively Citizen #1

I haven’t read the legislation for awhile, and correct me if I’m wrong, but does it just state that tobacco “products” are not valid for shipping…if that’s the case maybe we’ll all be buying a lot more of Roderick’s N. Rustica for home grinding, as its just a big leaf, not a finished product! Maybe market it as “decorative purposes only.” And someone suggested snuff “cigars” on another thread! Maybe we’ll find us a loop hole after this crap inevitably passes into law.

Or snuff could be considered as a flavoring, as some do add it to pipes.

I love how apperantly no in our Goverment has figured out that the criminal underworld including terrorist actualy respect the law. I rememeber after 9/11 having a hell of a time getting a new social security card. I rememeber being told it was to keep terrorists from getting a card, then I rememeber thinking wait if they can get a fake social security card is it really that hard for them to get a fake electric bill.

Here is a link to the actions taken. I’m guessing that if/when a decision is made, it will be updated here:actions

Tobacco sold online benefits the Hezbollah?? I doubt that a pack of tax free smokes, sold to an Israeli from under a pile of old Newsweeks at a kiosk in Ramat Gan is going to put a dent in the US economy. Maybe Mossad is behind this legislation? (yes I’m kidding.)

Consideration of S.1147 was held over until the next Executive Business Meeting of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Translation: they didn’t get around to it today. I don’t believe there is another Executive Business Meeting scheduled for 2009, so it appears that this won’t be taken up again until next year.

I think I read that if a bill does not get a vote before the end of the year, it has to be re-introduced which means that the process starts all over again. Maybe it won’t even be re-introduced. It’s an election year so they are going to be busy campaigning.

I didn’t see where they held it over, but I did read Leahy’s testimony from this morning, and he introduced all of the day’s topics thoroughly, EXCEPT for S.1147, which he didn’t even mention in passing. Guess I can hold off on ordering that 4 lb. tub of Stoker’s! Hee hee hee…

Mazel Tov to all snuffers! PS: to pipe smokers too.

As it mentions on the Govtrack website, most legislation doesn’t make it out of the committee.

Pipe smokers never really needed to worry. As I recall, there was nothing in the bill regarding that or bulk tobacco.

Yet there was a lot of panic among the Americans on the pipe forums I am on…