Hello fellow snuffhouse members. I would like to extend my sincerest apologies to all that were offended by the offering of what I thought were “tiger bone” snuff spoons in my latest snuff boxes. Last night I sent a letter to the e-bay seller that sells the snuff spoons. This was the response I received this morning: Dear friend, According to our traditional saying, it is called Tiger Bone. Actually, it generally refers to relatively hard bone. I once asked the master who processed them about it. It should be camel bone. - antiqueww I believe this statement, and do not think they would still be actively and openly selling them if it were false. I also apologize for my lack of knowledge of the situation with tigers being an endangered species that has been brought to the brink of extinction. As I have already stated I was under the impression that these were tiger bone because the original listing when I bought them on e-bay said they were “tiger bone snuff spoons”. Having seen bone snuffboxes, horn snuff mulls, yak bone snuff bottles, and camel bone chess sets many times for sale on e-bay I never gave it a second thought. The term “tiger bone” didn’t raise any red flags for me because I wasn’t really aware of the circumstances surrounding the issue. When I see terms like walrus tusk or ivory I do think about elephants and seals and such because I have heard those tragic stories. Please understand that I in no way condone senseless illegal poaching and bringing any species of animal to near if not complete extinction. When I saw that some members of the forum were upset about the spoons being “tiger bone”, naturally I immediately started searching the internet to become more informed about tigers. The poachers and people who commission them to do so are indeed after their bones. They have a very secretive black market that caters to those who refuse to stop using tiger bone for ancient medicines and wines. They are too valuable to them to be used to make toys or trinkets like snuff spoons. To make and attempt to openly sell such items would get them quickly into trouble. In China the trading of any part of a tiger is punishable by death. Understand that I am just a carpenter and craftsman that is trying to provide my fellow snuffers with snuff boxes that go a step beyond just a box by some mass producer that has no appreciation for snuff and our specific needs to make the snuffing experience more enjoyable. I have been working on this project for 2 years and have looked at all sorts of options for the spoons. I chose these spoons because they are “real” snuff spoons that were made to be used with snuff. They are sold with nearly every snuff bottle in the market. I also like that, much like my boxes, they are a hand crafted item and no two are exactly the same. I apologize to all for not asking more questions and doing more research prior to purchase, being mislead and in turn being inaccurate in my description, and also for not being familiar with the laws. Again, I am only trying to create a nice product with an antique flair. I am actively looking for an alternative man-made spoon to sell in addition to the current model. I am sending a note to Alex as well to apologize for the controversy ensued by my error and to request allowing an open thread with an accurate description.

I guess the devil is in the details. As the owner I have to make sure nothing illegal is going on here. Therefore I might be a bit picky sometimes, just to make sure we keep Snuffhouse running. Feel free to open up a new threat. Just don’t use phrases which indicate the use of illegal material. Thanks for the apology.

Your change of heart is justified. The Rhinoceros and Tiger Conservation Act of 1998 - monitored by the Office of Law Enforcement of the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service - prohibits the sale or importation of ANY substance derived from these endangered species and/or marketed as such. The claimed age of the substance is immaterial. The penalty is a heavy fine ($12,000) and/or up to six months in jail. Advertising your spoons as “beautiful hand carved tiger bone” seemed curiously naive rather than malicious and - despite what others have said - could have had serious repercussions. Glad to read that you have taken the advice of some here to heart. The best thing you can do now, as you realise yourself, is to make your own spoons from a guaranteed sustainable source so that your items may be bought with proper confidence. Your existing spoons remain tainted and should, in my opinion, be withdrawn. Less commendable are the sad comments from others that expressed the view that destruction of the world’s most endangered species for mere artefacts is “cool” and that killing of these vanishing animals is thereby justified. Fortunately the rest of the world desperately tries to stave off the extinction of rare animals by law enforcement such as the above act.

@Alex, thank you for accepting my apology. And no, nothing good could be gained by selling something illegal. It’s about the snuffbox and could have any spoon in it and be just as enjoyable. @MMUK- Yes, I made a mistake thinking they were tiger bone. Obviously, I was oblivious to the laws regarding tigers. I’m very relieved to find out they are not tiger bone and no laws are being broken. I thank you for politely pointing out the fact that there could be a legal issue if they had been. I respect the opinions of all our members. I wasn’t aware of the issues surrounding tigers. I can understand why some of you were so upset. I think others could have explained their position on the matter and would have found I was on their side of the fence. Either way I would have looked further into the situation.

Nice boxes Patrick, very, very nice! i will make an order with Tom monday to get me one of those.

I made my order for one today too! @onefortheroad i knew the bones were not real tiger bones this had been an issue before on E-bay. I really wish the sellers would’nt use that description for the bone spoons. I’m glad all this got worked out here so we can continue to talk about this remarkable snuff boxes! (at the same time i’m glad proof come out on this, Tigers are truely Great animals that should not be harmed in any way for anything)

When you buy from China, you never know what you are getting. Laws seem only to be occasionaly enforced for show.

I just need to put my opinion in here. You hear about people trying to raise money to save polar bears and whatnot from extinction. So that these ‘wonderful’ creatures can live so our children’s children can see them. Now think about it if the tables were turned. We are going extinct. Are the polar bears (or whatever animal you want to put in it’s place) going to try and save us? No, of course not. That would go against their nature. Their mission in life is to propagate their species and survive by any means necessary. Protecting their own offspring. They care not for the life of another species of animal. More food for them if that animal goes away. We have become to evolved.

+1 for the truth @ xander

@Snuffy: Most idiotic thing I have read today. Most idiotic thing I read yesterday was your other post on the subject. Just so you know… the reason why ANY animal goes extinct in modern times is because of US. @onefortheroad: Glad it’s “cleared” up. However, the fact that you would sell something that you really thought was made from Tiger bone is disturbing, the same goes for any retailer who would sell it.

…Survival of the fittest. We have gotten to the top of the chain but now we have to be “PC” about it. I personally don’t go around killing animals, nor do I support it for that matter…but I hate that humans have turned away from their animalistic nature and have to suppress the fact that we are no better than any other animal. You show me one other species of animal that tries to save another from extinction.

There is nothing “PC” about keeping a species alive, nothing. That species was here before us, does it not require our respect and deference? We have no reason to display our “animal” nature. Most of us eat meat, isn’t that enough? You say you do not support the killing of animals, but you sure don’t mind it for a stupid fucking snuff box._ You show me one other species of animal that tries to save another from extinction. _Humans.

Man there is so much evidence of some early humans respecting the animals in ways that sound a lot like modern conservation. I’d say just as much as being a predator on the food chain is natural to humans so is the idea of preservation and conservation. As far as other animals and speaking for them now there is a major human conceit that we have half an idea of what goes on with other animals. Constantly I’ll read about animals exhibiting unusal traits that would seem pretty natural to anyone who has watched similar species before.

“We have to become evolved.” That’s the only sensible thing you’ve said. We need to evolve past such naive attitudes. We have adapted to every climate and condtion there is on earth. We have perfected the art of survival. In fact we have done it too well. The only thing that can destroy us is ourselves. Every species has a role to play in the ecosystem. Its only when humans have departed from their “animalistic nature” that things have gotten out of balance. We can’t go back to that time. The only way forward is to foster understaning that our part is no longer to propagte and conquer, but to live in harmony and balance.

What do you mean we have no reason to display our animal nature? Our animal nature is what has gotten us this far. We want to further ourselves. We want to further our species. We lust, we get angry…all of these things are natural to us and should be praised, not suppressed. I am not condoning the killing of an animal for any use. Patrick didn’t kill any animals and neither have the people that have bought the snuffboxes. That animal was already dead. I can already see you making the point that “if no one is buying it, then it’s sale will stop being lucrative and therefore it won’t be produced”. That’s like vegetarians thinking they are making a difference by not eating an animal. As if their refusal to eat meat will cut into the profits of those producing it to the point that meat will not be sold anymore. I have to also say that I have nothing against vegetarians…you don’t have to eat meat. Don’t try to guilt me or change my opinion on the topic.

See now. This is how people get. I have not insulted you. I have not gone out of line. I am simply stating my opinion and disagreeing with you. I have nothing against you.

No. Don’t close it. I will retract my statement.

I don’t mean to offend anyone. I really enjoy the community here at snuffhouse. We are a family. I don’t want to ruin any relationships with anyone. It is my opinion and I don’t expect you to agree. I have a very selfish view of the world.

Im sorry but this is bullshit. Its as easy as with power comes responsibility. Look at the natives in the rain forest, sure they kill to eat but they are so few that they dont harm the eco system. We are just to many, and we can do great harm. All eco system are very fragile and can collapse if they are harmed. And I personally woudnt want to live in a world were animals extinct because of me or human kind. The idea just makes me sick, and also that people can be so indifferent makes me very sad. As far as the boxes go, im sure are nice and of great craftmanship and I appreciate your work. For me it was just misunderstanding and okay now. I still find it wierd that you didnt now about tigers but well everybody makes mistakes.

I have been a member on many different forums, but this one I saw from the beginning was different. For the most part, I can come to expect maturity within posts. On most of the other forums (mainly video game) people would get attacked for far out reasons. The way Patrick was attacked on the last thread was infuriating to me. When he posted his new TripleTek, you could tell he clearly had no intentions whatsoever of disobeying animal rights. Even if the spoons were in fact made of real tiger bones, we have no way of knowing whether the tigers were killed for that purpose, or if they were scavanged from an already dead tiger. Taking such an aggressive stance and assuming that the tigers were killed for this purpose, without conclusive evidence, is unfair. Assuming that all snuff spoons come from naturally deceased tigers is also absurd. Are there people that poach tigers? Sure. Are there tigers that die of natural causes and their parts get used as they should? You bet. My point is, we don’t know where said bones came from unless we were in the jungle watching. I seriously doubt anyone here has had that experience, and if you have please share. I’m not trying to step on toes here, just point out that we can handle these situations in a more adult and unbiased fashion. Patrick, I’ll be ordering one for myself for Christmas! keep up the amazing work bud!

@mrmaroon I am glad to agree with you.

I ordered one as soon as I saw this post, actually. Can’t wait to get it. I love the work you do, Patrick. I would use your snuffboxes if they were made of people. HAHAHA. SOILENT GREEN IS PEOPLE! Sorry…sick humour. I do love the boxes you make, and look forward to filling it with snuff.

Soilent Green is a good movie.

I think it’s wrong to exploit and kill anything. But I think we shouldn’t get over the top as we eat hamburgers and wear leather shoes. It’s already been agreed that these are not made of tigers, so it’s over now. I can see how he did not know, or think of it, as so much of our stuffs is animal derived. I love all animals, and I don’t think a tiger is per se more important than a cow. But this is all beating a dead horse now. But yeah, everyone has valid points, but it’s like peta believer discussing with a carnivore, we should come to an agreement over fueling differences.

I like them, and with things all cleared up, will order one in confidence. You are an artist, Patrick, and make a product for snuff takers…keep it up! The fact that you also researched and formed an apology shows character.

Thanks for the apology Patrick. The boxes are beautiful

"What do you mean we have no reason to display our animal nature? Our animal nature is what has gotten us this far. We want to further ourselves. We want to further our species. We lust, we get angry…all of these things are natural to us and should be praised, not suppressed. " Destroying the ancient Bamyan Buddhas in Afghanistan or attempted genocide in Rwanda makes no more difference to my personal survival than the extinction of a rare species of animal. But like John Donne such happenings diminish me because my concept of care and awareness is not limited to personal survival or gratification. Now can you in turn explain how exterminating the last remaining tigers on earth satisfies your lust, anger and instinct for survival. Is it, for example, a question of us or the tigers? Are we locked in a primeval struggle for survival with them? Rape and most murders, by the way, result from lust and anger. Unfortunately for you prohibitive laws, since the Code of Hammurabi, have been extant for thousands of years. These share common characteristics in attempting to discourage people from acting out their base impulses. For example if someone were to break into your parent’s home, kick your father to death and triumphantly rape your mother they are acting out impulses in violation of laws designed to protect your parents. Or someone might covet your snuffbox and, because he is bigger than you, punch your head in and simply take what he wants. Now you might praise such events as the result of base instinct, but most people are glad that society in general attempts to suppress such happenings. It is not animal nature that has progressed society beyond mere instinct for survival. If that was the case you might have moose on the moon or a penguin for your president. What has progressed mankind is called civilisation. This is based upon on communal understanding, sharing a common culture and common laws ostensibly applicable to all. Reasoning and morality are the hallmarks of social, political or technical development. Base instinct beyond mere survival is the antithesis of civilised society. Conservation is also necessary for large-scale human survival and is not the new PC concept you suggest. Farming, which replaced the nomadic hunter-gatherers, would never have taken place if people were so idiotic as to eat all that they reaped or kill all animals for food. Instead people conserved and so progressed from farming communities, to towns, to cities. Reason prevailed over your prized base instinct to consume or destroy all.

"I have been a member on many different forums, but this one I saw from the beginning was different. For the most part, I can come to expect maturity within posts. On most of the other forums (mainly video game) people would get attacked for far out reasons. The way Patrick was attacked on the last thread was infuriating to me. When he posted his new TripleTek, you could tell he clearly had no intentions whatsoever of disobeying animal rights. " Nothing to do with assuming anything. What Patrick was doing in advertising tiger bone snuff spoons is illegal in the USA. It’s as simple as that. Pointing out the illegality is hardly tantamount to an attack - no more so than pointing out to a driver that he is speeding when a speed camera is round the next bend. Fortunately he didn’t have to wait until someone from IFAW took notice.

Jesus what a shit-fest this has become. Yeah, he fucked up. But he apologized, and also stated that he’s trying to source a manmade spoon so there are no issues down the road. Give the man a break, and let’s move on. This is the snuffhouse, not the “let’s kick a fucker when he’s already apologized and then beat a goddamned dead horse into the ground” house.

All this bulldust about a tiger who died 30 years ago!!! What about all the elephants who had to die so that we can have pianos? What about the trillions of animals who must die every day so that we may have meat to eat. What about all the fish, birds, wild animals that get slaughtered daily. What about wild animals in zoos, captured for life without doing anything wrong? What about birds in SMALL cages to amuse their owners? Now why kick up such racket about a bloody tiger who died 30 years ago. Why did nobody complain about animal horns used to make snuff boxes? Nobody said anything about sharkteeth worn as amulets? What makes a tiger so special that we should have a whole thread about it? We talk about SNUFF…es en u ef ef. Let’s leave the tigers for the green people.

The spoons are probably not even tiger bone, that’s no longer the issue. As someone pointed out, tiger bone is far too valuable on the black market to be used for spoons. The issue is that some folks here think that killing endangered species for spoons or whatever trinket they fancy is just hunky-dory. There are laws and international treaties to prevent that sort of thing, though it persists illegally. Its truly sad that such attitudes exist among an educated populance. A quick google search leads me to the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation, which reports that: _It is estimated that there are between 5,000 and 7,400 wild tigers alive in the world today. That is only about 7% of the wild tiger population that existed a hundred years ago_Will they survive another 100 years?

Will we?

I think this thread should close. It’s not doing anyone any favours. It was civil until Snuffy decided stir things up. At the end of the day, humans are the animal that have caused the most destruction to planet Earth, and seeing that we are supposed to be intelligent, it is our responsibility to stop it and clear it up (just like this thread).

My immediate response would be no. We are parasites that do as we see fit. The problem is that there generally isn’t enough research into whether or not what we do actually is beneficial. Look at humanity. We are parasites. We take, we consume, we destroy, never for good. What’s the alternative? Mass suicide? Good luck with that. it would benefit the Earth in every way, but nobody’s willing to put down the remote and pick up the gun.

I’m going to agree with Pieter and sandy and say this thread has grown absurdly off-topic, and isn’t doing any one a bit of good. Evidently talking about environmental issues is touchy to some, just like talking about politics and religion. I think we need to get back to snuff and let Patrick have his apology… @onefortheroad, I didn’t think an apology was due, and people overreacted to this whole…issue… but that’s just my opinion.

People were rightly concerned about this subject combining as it does legality, morality, strong opinions and things that people hold dear. Patrick made a mistake and has apologised, he’s also stated the substance in question is not derived from Tigers. That really should be the end of it. Lets not have this closed, lets just let it drop and calm our tempers. There’s plenty I want to say to individual members but you know I am just going to forego that for the sake of some harmony. Is that, at least, something we could agree on?

The glee thread was closed in line with the owners directions. I don’t have any vested interest in anything and don’t understand the need to be so offensive. Ive been a moderator for about a year and to the best of my recollection Ive personally close one thread and about two comments. Why does it always have to be straight to the foul language the second someone disagrees with anyhting?

Anyway, thanks for the clarification Patrick. Closed

Thanks for closing.