The Wiz made mention of this an hour or so back here and on the ECF forum as well. I’d put this on the back-burner for awhile but now it’s in the forefront again. Thanks Wiz (-; I just took a look at HR 1676 and S 1147 with both GovTrack and OpenCongress. I did not see where anything has happened since the 19th of last month. My question is primarily for the vendors here, but of course info from any quarter is valued. If this travesty were to be signed into law, do any of you see this actually stopping the import of snuff or other tobacco products into the US? My understanding at this time is that it would not. What would result would be the additional record keeping involved with the documentation of sales and collection of taxes for all involved jurisdictions. Have the vendors taken steps in anticipation of such an event coming to pass? TIA
Good question, I have thought of asking Tom and Dave what they plan to do. But instead I have assumed all sales will cease so I have been buying and hording snuff for the prohibition period. I think deep down I don’t really think sales will stop I just love ordering!
Roderick, it will affect ALL tobacco products except cigars.
Between my own reading and re-reading of the bills along with the attempts of others to decipher the thing, I came away with the understanding that all vendors of smokeless tobacco products will be required to maintain proof of age records as well as be required to collect all applicable taxes at the point of sale. If not in compliance they would be prohibited from selling to individuals in the US. Those not in compliance will also face severe limitations in delivery services used. There is specific wording describing all smokeless tobacco products. This is from S.B.1147, Section 2, subsection 1 paragraph 12: The linkDefinition of Smokeless TobaccoAnd the text ‘(12) SMOKELESS TOBACCO- The term ‘smokeless tobacco’ means any finely cut, ground, powdered, or leaf tobacco, or other product containing tobacco, that is intended to be placed in the oral or nasal cavity or otherwise consumed without being combusted. Getting accurate information out of Washington is not the easiest thing in the world to accomplish. Now, I’m about as simple a layman as can be when it comes to understanding such things, hence my question. I was hoping that faced with the possibility of such major changes in order to continue doing business in the US, the vendors that take part in this forum may have a better understanding of what’s going on. ??
I think it was on Snuson that someone mentioned that the US has a catch-22 with Royal Mail, though it may have been Roderick. Regardless, someone pointed out something to the effect that the US postal service has a contract with Royal Mail that obligates them to deliver any packages sent from the UK to the US via Royal Mail that are allowed to be sent through the post under British law. Since tobacco is legally mailable in the UK, if the US was to refuse delivery of packages from the UK to the US because of tobacco, they’d be in breach of contract. Not sure of the legal validity of the whole thing, and with out government’s cavalier attitude to international law they may just tell Royal Mail to bugger off, but I’m hoping worst case, we can order from snuffstore and Roderick. Also, others have mentioned it seems intended more to go after the retailers than consumers, as it provides punishment for sending such a package, but not for receiving one. Until they get good enough at detecting which packages are which (something which can be greatly hindered simply by sending the package without a company name of any sort of it), and have some sort of fine for me, I’ll continue to place orders so long as there are others willing to risk filling them. Also, while Tom and Dave might not be safe in the event it passes, I feel this bill is without teeth for international merchants. US courts can subpoena The Northerner, Roderick, and snuffstore all they want, but they’d need to place an extradition request to the vendors respective countries in order to prosecute them. I worry more for the fate of snus than snuff, simply because it seems like snus makes up a larger consumer/tax base, so those companies would be the most likely to be targeted. While snuff has had some media exposure lately, snus is more predominate in the public consciousness in my opinion. This is mostly due to the release of, and advertising for, Camel CRAP, but whatever the cause, I feel more people are aware of that then of snuff. Even in the south, where awareness of it is much more common, it’s thought of as a variety of dip, and few think of the myriad European and Indian products out there. Although I’ve recently been told security through obscurity never works, I feel pretty secure in the obscurity of snuff.
PACT Act: [quote]‘(B) EXCEPTION- The term ‘cigarette’ does not include a cigar (as defined in section 5702 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986).[/quote] Here is that definition: quote Cigar ‘‘Cigar’’ means any roll of tobacco wrapped in leaf tobacco or in any substance containing tobacco (other than any roll of tobacco which is a cigarette within the meaning of subsection meaning of subsection (b)(2)).[/quote] http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Internal\_Revenue\_Code:Sec.\_5702.\_Definitions Once again, wrap powdered tobacco “in leaf tobacco or in any substance containing tobacco” and you are selling and shipping a “cigar”. It is not a “cigarette”; it is not not “snuff” — it is a “cigar.” That is according to the letter of the law.
I would suggest that all snuff vendors wrap their snuff tins in tobbacco leaves to avoid problems if this law passes in the Senate and hits Obama’s desk! 
The Wiz!
[quote]shikitohno I think it was on Snuson that someone mentioned that the US has a catch-22 with Royal Mail, though it may have been Roderick. Regardless, someone pointed out something to the effect that the US postal service has a contract with Royal Mail that obligates them to deliver any packages sent from the UK to the US via Royal Mail that are allowed to be sent through the post under British law. Since tobacco is legally mailable in the UK, if the US was to refuse delivery of packages from the UK to the US because of tobacco, they’d be in breach of contract. Not sure of the legal validity of the whole thing, and with out government’s cavalier attitude to international law they may just tell Royal Mail to bugger off, but I’m hoping worst case, we can order from snuffstore and Roderick. [/quote] I’m not so sure about this. It may be instructive to compare tobacco to absinthe. From 1912 to 2007, absinthe was difficult to obtain in the U.S… It was not illegal to own it or drink it, but it was illegal to manufacture, sell, or import it. This fell under FDA regulations, the reason being that wormwood was considered a “dangerous” food additive. (Read the history of absinthe and you’ll find an interesting parallel with the demonization of absinthe in 1910 to the demonization of tobacco in 2009. You will learn that its banning in the early 20th century in Europe and America was due to false hysteria, guided and manipulated by the French wine industry.) Prior to 2007, the only way for Americans to obtain absinthe was to either bring it with you from Europe or mail order via European retailers. In both cases there was always the risk of U.S. Customs seizing it. I would always bring back a couple bottles with me whenever I’d return from Europe. Fortunately, Customs never seemed interested in it. In fact, most of the agents had no idea what it was. I would also order it from shops in Germany and the UK. I never had a package seized by U.S. Customs, but I do know some people who did. Was this a violation of the U.S. Mail/Royal Mail agreement? Perhaps, but if the Royal Mail was bothered by any of this, they made no effort to challenge it. If you were unlucky enough to have your absinthe seized, you were out a couple hundred dollars. No appeals. The prudent thing to do is to sell Toque Cigars. Instead of a tin, wrap the stuff in a tobacco leaf (or paper containing 0.0001% tobacco substance). Roderick, you already offer your customers the choice of buying in 10g tins, 25g tins, bullets and economy bags. I and many other American customers would surely appreciate it if you added the “wrapped in tobacco leaf” packaging option. You can then honestly and proudly write “Cigars” on the customs declaration.
Well, Djarum just started wrapping their clove cigarettes with leaf, and now they are cigars. I guess if it really came down to it, snuff, and loose snus could be wrapped up in cigar leaves. But, if anything happens, I tend to think it will be more about collecting state taxes and verifying age on record. Which might be an added chore for the sellers, and may result in higher prices, but still be available.
As long as I am still able to purchase snuff and snus, I don’t mind paying the applicable state taxes and whatnot. I’m ordering it on the internet because I can save money. There’s just not a market here for such products. I just hope it works out like that…or doesn’t get passed at all. Yea…that would be much better.
@shikitohno The idea that a previous agreement twixt the 2 governments and their postal services is one I’d not heard before. It would be a beautiful twist of, irony, if true 
@kjoerup There had been considerable discussion at the ECF forum for several months regarding these bills. I had completely forgotten about the idea of wrapping product in leaf, in effect creating a cigar, till you spelled it out here! Ah to be sure we’ve managed to place an incredible number of baft dastards in DC. Sigh. As much as I hate the thought of paying additional taxes I’ll do so if need be. My primary concern in the case of passage would be that vendors could possibly wash their hands of the American market rather than deal with the added layers of documentation. What I’ve still not been able to find is the actual current status of either bill. Anyone know if there has been any recent activity? S.1147 placed on Senate calendar the 19th of last month. HR1676 referred back to the Judiciary Committee on June 21st. “Toque Stogies” does have a certain ring to it… (-:
Well I am sure Obamanation is working hard to put a Tobacco Czar in place… But goes to show you how much americans need government to protect them from themselves…
C’mon ibild, give me some more of your never ending wisdom.
@roderick “The crazy thing is, we fully comply and send the details every year to the US, unfortunately every year they return these details as they don’t have a dept to deal with them. They made the rules, but haven’t set anything up to deal with them.” No that strikes me as truly sad, or funny… but it’s in keeping with a beacuracy gone mad! Appreciate the insight from your side of the equation. Thank you
Tax it fags, snuff, snus, chew, dip and lip! The way I see it…Tobacco should cost more than opium. By the time you take your time, my time is already over. You so badly want to bother me with the liberties I have taken. Save your breath as I propose a tax on oxygen itself. The grim collector of this tax will reap all that is sewn.
I hear the BEO considers smoking to be so a important an issue that it requires 2 czars. He’s reportedly considering a pair of the best known experts in the field; Cheech & Chong.