I’ve noticed that I’m not the only person to mention that they are an alcoholic no longer drinking and I wondered about your experiences especially with snuffs flavored similarly to alcohol. Personally I enjoy McC’s hops and toque’s bourbon. One of my favorites is toque’s whiskey and honey especially since it has some whiskey flavor but doesn’t make me completely insane like whiskey.I was wondering how you felt about snuffs like these because I don’t crave alcohol too often and I can manage to curb them pretty well. I was just wondering what other alkies thought of snuffs flavored with or similarly to alcohol. If you do drink I really don’t care but DON’T TELL ME ABOUT YOUR FAVORITE DRINK AND SNUFF COMBINATION OR ANY OTHER COMBINATION OF VICES. I’ve been sticking with tobacco for the past 3 months and have had enough periods of sobriety followed by periods of relapse to know I can be sober and it’s worth it but I have to work for it. and if you’re a friend of Bill W or a former associate let’s remember the 12 traditions but feel free to PM me.

You gotta want it , sobriety, and that should take away some of the ‘work’. I’m lucky about alcohol, one drink is perfect, two is to many. Beer, wine and something eighty proof is always on hand, just there should I get the urge, which is usually about once a week…like I said, just lucky that way. You’re to young to be an alcoholic. Drinking too much is just part of being young.

Blacking out, drinking in the morning, and not enjoying the drinking to excess anymore but being unable to stop drinking once started definitely aren’t part of being young. Neither is daily drinking or substituting other drugs for alcohol because you don’t have to be 21 to buy them or all the work I did to pay for it all.

Sometimes I find myself obsessing with snuff the way I used to about intoxicants, but what I love about snuff is that it’s one drug that doesn’t impair me or my finances and I worry about running out of my favorites at times, but it’s so much cheaper than booze or street drugs that i know I’ll never be out of it completely. And if it becomes unavailable in the US then I’m going to make my own and raise hell about not being able to buy it. At any rate I’d much rather be a snuffaholic than anything else

I am a friend of Bill’s and have been for quite some time. I use toque whiskey and honey. I really do not pick up much of a whiskey flavor at all more honey than anything else. My daily reprieve from alcoholism is based upon my spiritual conditioning not on what I snuff or snus. That being said If I was still in my first year of sobriety I don’t know that I would open up that can of worms. Just my two cents

I haven’t ever taken a pinch and said “that takes me back to a good time” and I think any cravings I do get while snuffing alcohol flavored snuffs is likely coincidental. It’s only happened once and it went away as soon as I recognized it. I do appreciate feedback though. I’d ask others in my immediate recovery community but none of them use snuff. Many of them smoke like chimneys though and a lot of them have 20+ years of sobriety.

probably more then admit it. And alcohol is a pretty hard drug no matter what age you are. I’ve had friends deal with alcohol addiction and with herion addiction. I was more worried about the alcohol problems. (though huge diffrences between the way people drink and if you can control it that’s a diffrent story.)

I apologize for any insensitivity or ignorance about the subject of alcoholism. I’ve seen lots of folks struggle with it but have little insight to suffering with it. For the record, I’ve got my own foibles, and towing the line is a daily adventure. 

addiction isn’t well defined or well understood. It can come in many forms. The main thing is to know yourself and admit your limitations.

I was an alcoholic at 17. I went to 1 AA meeting, but couldn’t be doing with the all or nothing approach. I know that alcohol will always be a part of my life, but it’s all a matter of who/what is in control. When alcohol is in control that’s when you have to take a step back, and deal with the shakes and sweats for a while. Fair enough the first time I made that decision, I asked my mother to lock me in my room, only to come out for food and the toilet. This worked for me, and once I realised that I could conquer it, I took control. Ok usually I drink a hell of a lot more than the recomended limit, but I have a high tolerance. The difference now is I drink because I want to not because I have to.

Since February when I came out of hospital, I’ve been virtually housebound due to my back and legs being buggered. I’ve been to the pub probably 8 times, and that’s the only time I’ve had alcohol, but after 3 pints I was pissed, due to tablets and not drinking regularly anymore, but the biggest bonus for me is that I haven’t even missed booze. I never thought I’d ever say that but it’s gospel. All in all if you get to the stage of drinking because you want to, not because you have to, then I reckon you’re in a better place than the denial and penitence of AA.

Stefan

Never found any “liquor” flavored tobacco to remind me of liquor.  So no problem there.

Been almost 4 years for me, I spend my weekend playing music in bars.  Watching the idiocy of drunks from the stage is an unusual yet amazing deterrent.

Ken

17 years a couple months ago. No 12 step programs, thank you. Trading one addiction for another, less pleasant one is not for me. I think the whole point is to overcome the behaviors and live as normally as possible, not spend the rest of your life drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes with a bunch of other former drunks. That would be an unpopular sentiment with the AA crowd, I’m sure.

I came pretty damn close; I was at the stage where things were unravelling and the desperately awful scenes in social settings were getting closer together; if you’ve been there you know what I mean. I was best man at my best friends wedding, held it together til after the speeches but had to be carried out at the end of the night, woke up in a nearby farmers field a couple of times, colleagues at work starting to notice hangovers, going for a quick drink after work and ending up still there at closing time, falling asleep on the train, waking up at the end the line; you know what I mean. I just stopped drinking, didn’t get any official diagnosis from any medic or go to any meetings just stopped drinking. 

15 years on and I have not been drunk since. I eventually found I could drink with a meal or have night cap with no problems and no desire to carry on and on as I would have once. My criteria now is that I will only have drink with my wife and when she stops I do. More than a couple of glasses of anything - which is her limit - and I feel like I’m getting a migraine so my body helps me out as well. I know I’ve been lucky and am very thankful for it. I was in a job where drinking was integral and not only that - I also socialised with the people I worked with, everybody in my job did, it was just how it was.

Do we have a higher ratio of alkies here than other groups? I wonder if we are all broadly from the same type of background?

Do we have a higher ratio of alkies here than other groups? I wonder if we are all broadly from the same type of background?

predisposition to addictive behavior

Of course, I genuinely forgot that part:)

heh

I think there are probably a fair number of former abusers who also loved the good stuff. Tobacco is a great substitute for not being able to enjoy an old vice any more.

The Dr.silkworths opinion http://silkworth.net/silkworth/doctorsopinion.html It’s the phenomenon of craving.

I know of people who get sober without ever going to AA and it acknowledges in the big book that folks can do that. It also acknowledges the possibility of people who drink heavily to learn moderation. And right before the steps it says these are the steps we took suggested as a program of recovery. It never says you HAVE to do anything but this worked for them so they suggest it. We all have different ways of doing things and unlike a religion or a cult most folks around the tables acknowledge there are other means to the same end. Personally I say stick to what works for you and if it works don’t take it apart to see how. The latter I learned the hard way. I know I can’t enjoy moderation or inebriation and with snuff I don’t really have to worry about either.

Life is about moderation in all aspects There have been times in my life where I needed 7 meetings in a week and times when I would go two months without going to one. I now go to one a week which I truly look forward to going to If my life feels chaotic I go to more. That’s what works for me everyone is different though. To each their own The one thing that always helped me and I truly believe this in all my heart is once you become a pickle you can never be a cucumber again.

The all or nothing approach is working well for me. It’s been about a year of sobriety for me. The shit is really starting to hit the fan too. Glad I’m sober for this.

.

I’am not. Though I did used to drink alot. Then I turned 21 realized I could drink at anytime that I wanted to and suddenly it just wasn’t as much fun.

Nah, I always prefered drugs over alcohol. Never reached the point of addiction though, thankfully. Got married and had a kid and can’t afford to deal with legal issues if I ever got caught now. Just the occassional indulgence of legal “herbal incense” these days.

Add me to the list though I preferred both alcohol acid and pot. Now I prefer being sober. To each their own, I’m just grateful I didn’t kill anyone while driving drunk.

Yeah it looks like a lot of people here have gone through some type or other thing with drugs. Worst part of quiting is you know what would “cure” your situation in a minute. Though what seems most important to any quiting is determination. Not in a throw your will against it with force. But more o.k. that didn’t work I’am still going to try something maybe something else, I’am going to find some other way. I’am a musician so I’ve known a number of junkies and alkies. And the thing is they all seem to have diffrent ways they’ve gotten off of it. Some kept a goal in mind and an image of the worst times. Some just got sick of it. Some locked themselves up. Some used other things (which can back fire sometimes). Some prayed and prayed. Some tapered, some got help some refused help and thought it’s all me so your help is meaningless. One thing though I think highly of people that deal with that kind of thing with success. I have more respect for people who have gone through and come out, then teetotalers (only in the I’ll never touch anything). Not that I don’t disrespect teetotalers just it ain’t a bragging point. So I hope that helps to know I have respect for you. I’ve also gotten a few monkeys off my back not alcohol though and I feel like a better person for it.

This thread is beginning to explain an awful lot of things!
I am waiting for the bestiality thread to explain the rest

Oh gosh that is something I don’t want to read about. Though I do have to say on that subject watch out for dolphins they can misbehave.

Or we could take the Robert Anton Wilson approach which is that since humans are animals it’s always technicaly beastiality. It’s the cross species thing that’s off.

@Whalen Don’t encourage @bob

I’am not. Though I did used to drink alot. Then I turned 21 realized I could drink at anytime that I wanted to and suddenly it just wasn’t as much fun.

My heavy drinking halted suddenly when I left the Army aged 24.

@bish777 yeah situation can make a big diffrence. I’ve known people who had really hard lives and were addicted to herion untill things started turning around. They claimed the withdraw sucked but that there wasn’t a real tempatation.

Good Lord, surely we are not all recovering alcoholics?!!? 

Not me I am recovered!!! Being sober enough?Recovery is that; getting back what was lost. Alcohol was the solution I am the problem. Alcoholism not alcohol was-um! The ism is - I ,self,me.how do you claim true humility?Be rigorously honest?Do a great deed and not be found out? Surrender to win.Why go to a twelve step program and not work it?Give it away to keep it? Everyday is a great day this side of the turf.My favorite and original It is better to be seen then viewed.also Living on borrowed time the first hundred years are the hardest ! Feel free to utilize.

I was an alcoholic by the age of 15. I have 29 or 30 years of sobriety…I forget which…I was pretty drunk when I quit drinking.

I went to AA for about 6 months. Just long enough to get comfortable with the fact that I was not the only one in the world that could not stop drinking once I started. After that hearing the same sad stories, and brags, just got depressing. That said I support anyone that chooses a 12 step program or any other program in an effort to improve their life. My wife is currently in a program, not AA, but shares some similar steps. It focuses more on coping strategies and recognizing your triggers.

For me there is no casual drink. It is all or nothing. My life is good that way. If I want to have a social drink I have a cup of coffee or tea.

With weed I could always take it or leave it. Currently nicotine and caffeine are my only recreational drugs.

Nicotine is recreational, but caffeine is essential!

t’other way round for me - caffeine I could do without, nicotine never.

me I couldn’t do without either. Man you don’t want to see me when I’am short on either.

I was without both (at the same time) for a couple/few years, and imo there’s no big virtue in going without. In fact I think it made me really bored.

You take away my caffeine and nicotine now and I don’t think I’d ever leave my bed.

It is really easy for people to tell their own story. It brings a sense of relief. It is not selfish and it is certainly not a method of asking for pity. To be able to allow a peer to comprehend a personal difficulty in life, it brings you to further appreciate the changes you have made to overcome your own plague. Quite often problem/addiction has affected the people around you, so when somone else gives you some kind of pat on the back it makes you feel that you can ammend any problems with people and prevent them from happening to anyone else you meet in your life. Furthermore, if you are still stuck in the rut, telling your story to people you don’t know on a face to face level can help you get your thought out. For example when I write an essay on a topic, If I discuss it with somone It really brings out all the ideas I have burried in the back of my head. However, when it is somthing so frowned upon such as alcoholism, it is too difficult to talk to somone you know out of fear of dismisal or dissapointment in you which is very common. These types of settings are very judgement free which makes it so easy to put your thoughts out.

I told part of my own story in a much earlier thread, looking back at it I kind of felt like an idoit and clearly seemed like my post was written by an attention whore, hind sight is 20-20, which is why you should always be very critical when writting about somthing so serious, you don’t want to be mistaken for somthing you are not trying to be. The fact that this thread is based on this whole topic makes it much easier to not be mistaken, so it is kind of nice to have this here. It really does encourage people to put in their two cents.

Unfortunately when I had written about my own situation, it was used against me in a very grand misunderstanding, so I promptly erased the post.

As somone who has had a run in with abusiveness to alcohol, I pulled myself out after seeing the downward spiral I could have been stuck in for even longer. These days I have changed my entire lifestyle because of my spiritual beliefs which is an amalgam of pagan/hindu things that I refer to as ‘The Noble Path.’ This includes limiting meat in my diet, staying primarily vegetarian with exceptions to diary and eggs, minor exceptions to fish, and very limited rare exceptions of having any other sort of meat. Along with diet is the rest of my lifestyle and maintaining balance, staying active, working the land and gardening, maintaining good work ethic while on the job, helping friends and neighbors within reason, and always trying to better relationships you have with all people while keeping strong family values. Part of this philosophy is avoiding over-indulging yourself, so I have come to learn to have a glass of wine with dinner, and also to put the cork back on. On a particularly productive week, having a six pack of Dos Equis or Harp on Friday or Saturday night is rewarding and justified. You truly must emobdy the noble way in order to maintain it. Your attitude in daily life is very important.

I hope this wasn’t too long and boring.

Thanks, Vito. You are lucky to be able to drink moderately. Some of us can’t take that chance any more. I probably could but wouldn’t like to go through what it took for me to quit again.It was the hardest thing I have ever done.

Vito that is so true. Sharing with others brings perspective. So many times I’ll have a problem and thought rut I’ll tell someone else and realize how stupid I’ve been.

Nice post, well said Vito.

I’m lucky and I never lose sight of it, I also have spiritual beliefs which helped me vastly when I was in a terrible place, as well as a wife in a billion. My older brother did not get off so lightly, and in one of those strange coincidences, neither did my wife’s older brother - both of whom were destroying their own and other people’s lives before we met, and both at about the same time . I might have vaguely alluded to my drink problems once before on the site, but what I have posted on this thread is the most I have ever said about it outside of my marriage. It can be easier to talk like this and it can be very helpful and for some reason I have no problem saying it. 

Thanks, Vito. You are lucky to be able to drink moderately. Some of us can’t take that chance any more. I probably could but wouldn’t like to go through what it took for me to quit again.It was the hardest thing I have ever done.

I second that statement. Theres been times when I can have just a beer but eventually that will lead to drinking more than I can keep track of. Plus I know it only gets worse when you relapse. I find every time I’ve relapsed I though I had some control but I always lost it. Frankly I’d rather eat all the meat I want and not drink but if that dietary discipline gives you drinking discipline good for you.

Yeah one of the reasons I can’t drink like a used to is there is a certain point a few drinks in where my brain thinks I’ve got my old tolerance not my new tolerance. Seriously not a good thing. Additionaly hangovers get worse the older you get. They used to be an annoyance and now they kill the whole day.

All of the discipline is an atempt to be as noble as possible. It does not ‘help’ me not abuse drinking, but by not abusing drinking, I am doing a good job at being noble.

All of the discipline is an atempt to be as noble as possible. It does not ‘help’ me not abuse drinking, but by not abusing drinking, I am doing a good job at being noble.

true

Not recovering at all. Really like drinking.

Here’s a question for the group here. I drink every night, a beer or two or maybe 1/2 bottle of wine. I’d drink anything really, but my finances don’t allow me to get to  where I really want to go. My tolerance for 1/2 bottle of wine or 2 beers is nearly met and like I said I would drink twice this if I could afford it. This has been my routine for the past 2 years. I usually drink this amount quickly and on an empty stomach to get more for my mileage if you catch my drift.  My question is, because I have not ruined myself financially with alcohol does this mean I have control of the situation or just exceptionally patient but still alcoholic?

Hard question to answer.

But being financially solvent doesn’t preclude anyone from being an addict.

yeah not any easy question to answer this might help. Imagine life without any alcohol for a while. How is that picture looking? Try it for a significant amount of time. Not definatily going to give you an answer but it’s more illuminating then what you’ve given us.

I wouldn’t worry about 2 beers a day, it’s when it’s 15 pints and a bottle of whisky when you should start worrying.

Stefan

you don’t have to be drunk to be an alcoholic. It’s a matter of dependancy. Which is pretty complex when you think about it. Bottom line though is it effecting your life?

It’s not how much you drink but what it does to you that you need to evaluate.

@Walrus,  I worry because I’d like it to be 15 pints a day.
@bob,  I could go without but it causes me anxiety to consider that long term.

that definatily sounds like something to be carefull with. Then again what’s wrong with an addiction all depends I guess on what you get out of it and the like.

Given the above, personally, I would stop now. But that’s just me and based on my life experiences.

I don’t miss being drunk, the hangovers, the violence or waking up hoping that the night before had only been a dream. Only to find out it wasn’t…

But it did take me a few years to get to the point I did not think about having a drink.

@thorgriinr Only you can determine whether or not your an alkie but there’s potential there. Whatever you do if it gets to a point where it really affects your life and you feel damned if you do and damned if you don’t drink, there is a solution that many people use one day at a time.

@thogrimnr the fact that you intentionally drink on an empty stomach is questionable but for your own peace of mind I would recommend looking at a list of the symptoms of alcoholism. It may be difficult to admit to having a few of the symptoms and that in itself would be a symptom.

The thing about alcoholism/drink dependance is that it takes many forms and because of the world we live in, and the hyper political correctness and litigation cautious medical world, all of them are treated with the same weight. But that is not a helpful approach, it’s the same ‘nanny’ way of thinking that forces health warnings on snuff for the simple reason it’s tobacco. I used to work in a very stress rich environment and just about everyone used alcohol to unwind with. For some people that would end in ruin, but for 99.9% it helped - despite the weekly number of units representing dependance on the modern scale. We have been brainwashed into having the artificial, invented limits playing in the back of our minds, sitting there like some Victorian schoolmaster. You will know if your level of drinking is wrong for you, it’s the point where you have to have it and when the absence of it causes mental or physical pain or if drinking has any form of negative impact on your relationships or at work. If that is the case it would be wise to cut down or speak to someone, otherwise don’t let it bother you. 

I’m over two years sober from PAINKILLER ADDICTION
Talk about a tough one…  however I couldn’t IMAGINE being hooked on Alcohol.  Readily available, socially accepted- ROUGH!
I never had a problem with anything else and still enjoy green buds on occasion.  I think everyone else should too
I didn’t really get down with the whole AA or NA vibe though- a bunch of older guys trying to one-up eachother.  EVERYONE HAD IT WORSE THAN EVERYONE ELSE! It just seemed as if they wanted to be the worst one there and talk about themselves!  I just got sick of the depressing stories.
I want to say though that I think it’s GREAT THAT YOU GUYS ARE GETTING SOBER!!!
My life is awesome now!

yeah refuse painkillers or herion you don’t have to explain it. People always ask when you don’t drink. I agree with snuffster. We’re all diffrent and whatever you do to get through your day. Crazy thing too what is addiction? You’d think there would be a well defined medical definition for it, there isn’t. This is why some people can say it’s regular use. My favorite is that you have problems that should out weigh the useage but doesn’t stop you. My definition is I can’t function without it not really function and that is not situational. I.e. sure I might need pain killers after surgery or injury but absent these conditions I don’t need them to shave and go to work. My favorite Painkiller kicking story finally fall asleep (you can’t sleep much you want to but can’t) and then get a leg twitch that launches the lower half of the body into the air. That was fun. AA NA are fine the thing I hate about programs and treatments is they so often act like their way is the only way. The reality is there is no one way (which makes sense is there one way people get addicted to anything? Or behave when they are addicted). What seems to be important is to try again and again and try something diffrent and learn from your mistakes. Like don’t talk to your mother or your exs for example. Back to the snuffster point I’ve known two junkies who are successfull and have been at it for years (like over 50 in one case) no jail time no additional crimes, in both their cases I think they’d probably get into trouble and be dead if they were sober. My point isn’t that addictions are safe (I would recommend trying to imitate these fellows) just that it isn’t black and white and you have to deciede for yourself what is best and that there are always outliers.

@bob absolutely spot on there.

Stefan

@Walrus1985 thanks for the support.

thanks all for your valuable input! I appreciate it!

@thorgrimnr Here’s a question for the group here. I drink every night, a beer or two or maybe 1/2 bottle of wine. I’d drink anything really, but my finances don’t allow me to get to  where I really want to go. My tolerance for 1/2 bottle of wine or 2 beers is nearly met and like I said I would drink twice this if I could afford it. This has been my routine for the past 2 years. I usually drink this amount quickly and on an empty stomach to get more for my mileage if you catch my drift.  My question is, because I have not ruined myself financially with alcohol does this mean I have control of the situation or just exceptionally patient but still alcoholic?

What make an alcoholic is: when an Alcoholic takes the first drink it creates a phenomenon of craving and drinks without wanting to. read this link it may help you understand. http://silkworth.net/silkworth/doctorsopinion.html. heavy drinkers are not alcoholic if they suddenly stop even after a 12 pack or pint of liquor.

@basement_shaman thanks for this. it seems I am a heavy drinker who needs a bigger budget.  In other words when I’m not drinking I am completely oblivious to it. There is no desire to hurry the day along so I can get to my beverage of choice.

really there are no clear cut this is an addict or alcoholic. Some alcoholics can stop at a few drinks. Some never get drunk.

I’m this, I’m that. It’s very complicated. I sometimes think it’s possible to drink yourself out the other side. One drink is too many, 1000 isn’t enough. I’ve been in hospitals, police stations and AA meetings. I’m sure a very wise man had a lot to say about this issue once upon a time. Good health and much love in finding a way through.

@peppernut1 glad to have you aboard. We could almost have a meeting on this forum, if this wasn’t an entirely different site with a surprising number of recoverees of various sorts.

I took a few whiffs from a pinot noir bottle that was left in the woods today and I now have in my possession six empty Corona bottles from todays disk golf session with the boys. I was the designated driver and was thanked with a free lunch. There is a certain amount of pride welling inside me for not taking even one drop. When I said no thank you I was asked if I was still not drinking while being handed a beer I replied that I was an alcoholic.

Congrats. Sounds like a good time was had by all, each in their own way.

Way to go!

Well done mate, bloody tough call what with the social aspect and people drinking in front of you. 

Yep, been sober just over a year now. Started drinking when I was 25 and I’m 38 now. It took jail to straighten my ass out. Three marriages, several good jobs lost, and many lost years I can’t even recall. Well here I am now starting over from square one once again but it feels good to have some wits about me. It’s been a tough road but I’m alive to talk about it. -Jason-

Congratulations! When you hear ‘it gets better’ you can believe it.

@BigDaddySnuff - you’ll get there - the oldest phrase in the alkies book is still the best advice - one day at a time. There is life after booze and it’s better than it ever was drunk. Hang in there brother.

@BigDaddySnuff Congratulations! I just celebrated six months earlier this week. I’m even more of a tobacco fiend but when people compare and contrast they have to admit that it’s better than what I was.

I heard this a few 24 hours ago and one day you will see: First it get real, then it gets strange and then it gets real strange. If you can trudge to this point and be true to yourself. Your on the beam and it all about balance.

@Mouse Yes, there is no doubt things are getting better. I have found that problems are a lot easier to deal with sober. I think the biggest shock to my system now is dealing with the past. It’s hard to believe how much damage I have done. I don’t expect to be forgiven by everyone but sitting down and taking my inventory is a bit shocking at times! Thanks for the reply.

@TomStrasbourg Congrats to you sir! Man when I hit six months it felt like I really accomplished something. I used to smoke up to two packs a day when I first quit drinking. I sure am thankful for snuff because I haven’t had a cigarette in six days. I still put in a dip once or twice a day depending on my stress level. Keep on truckin Tom!! This is a great thread.

@basement_shaman oh man basement I love reading your posts. The ‘real strange’ part is so true. Some days I feel like I have one foot in an alternate universe and the other stuck in a rabbit hole. Strangely enough I have learned to find a sense of balance even when I feel this way. I guess the hardest part of this whole process was to allow myself to feel the things I used to run from but then let them go. It makes for a fun house adventure sometimes. Thanks for the reply Shaman!

@snuffster Yes, I love waking up in the morning not being hungover or trying to talk to people at work without them smelling my breath. LOL oh man the crap I thought I was getting away with was absurd! It’s good to not have to hide anymore. It feels good to live the life of an honest person now. Life without booze is alright in my book. Thanks for the reply sir!

Great job to those who have been sober. I believe there is a genetic predisposition to addiction. Both my brothers, may they rest in peace, my sister, My oldest son and many aunts and uncles were and are alcoholics and addicts. Also I believe a lot of them are self medicating. I would probably climb into a bottle or use Dope if it weren’t for my Lovely Wife. Before we were married I was a oz a week pot smoker, also Drank to excess and misused pharmaceuticals. When my oldest son was born I decided that I was not a good example for him. So I quit everthing cold turkey. The only things I am addicted to now is nicotine and caffeine. I have a shot of Markers Mark Bourbon from time to time. it takes me about 6 months to go thru a 750ml bottle. I have a glass of wine or a beer with a meal. Don’t get me wrong, because there are times when stress level is high that I would love to just get loaded and forget the world, but as it has been said before, One day at a time. edm

IMO, alc is more bigger problem, than cigs overall. I just imagined all the diseases caused by tobacco and compared it with all familie troubles, grown children with poor education and poverty, inner struggles and menthal problems, car accidents - they all are caused by alcohol. But in pubs it’s allowed to drink, not to smoke.

I think for me alcohol is worse then smoking too (several kinds) cause no matter how many cigarettes I’ve had I never woke up the next day and said oh damn it why is she in the same bed with me! Well not without alcohol involved.

@mustangil Damn rigt about the genetics! They’ve even found some natural peculiarity in the livers of alcoholics that probably explains why they process it differently. Someone showed me an article about it and if they develop that finding they could test people for alcoholism or alcoholic potential before they even drink. Addiction is a disease but unfortunately its one that affects mental, emotional, physical, environmental, and spiritual health and the person with the diseases is only one of the sufferers. I’ll think of your family whenever there’s a moment of silence for the alcoholic who still suffers, along with a lot of other people I know.

also it’s the only disease you’ll get yelled at for having.

The only issue I have had with my wife is alcohol. I have almost 30 years sobriety. When we first got married she did not drink. She had in college but at the time we met it was not a part of her life. She picked up wine 5 or so years ago and she was off to the races. She has a year sobriety now. We both have a genetic predisposition…It was rough on our kids but hopefully they learned some things about our family, about love, forgiveness and perseverance.

I would say that ‘addiction’ itself is genetic. I don’t know that I agree that alcoholism itself is genetic. Meaning that there is a specific gene that triggers one to seek out alcohol. Mostly I see alcohol as a readily available and socially acceptable drug that helps the addict deal with mental/emotional issues. Sometimes alcohol isn’t enough for some people and they turn to drugs. Addiction runs in my family and in most cases alcohol is the drug of choice but for some of my family it’s pills. In all cases of addiction in my family it boils down to a cycle of bad behavior learned from the previous generation. Depression is the big issue and self medicating is the solution. One major problem that I have had during my recovery is the indoctrination into the world of, 'you’re sick, you have a disease, you will always be sick, you’re not like other people. While this may be true it wasn’t the mindset I wanted to carry with me. I didn’t want to think of myself as diseased. Yes, I may be DIS-eased but what a funky dark little cloud to carry around with me. It’s been mentioned in this thread earlier that alcohol is not the problem I AM. Drugs/alcohol/addiction are only tools or symptoms to a mental problem. In my opinion.

I can relate to what Snuffster says about alcohol problems not being black and white. I gave up drinking over twenty years ago. The big reason I gave it up in my late twenties was that the stuff simply started making me physically sick (allergies). One day when I was trying to force down a beer without retching, I asked myself exactly why I was drinking, and quit shortly after that. Technically, I suppose I am an alcoholic, as I was never able to see the sense in drinking a couple of beers, though alcohol never damaged my life or finances. I also never drank constantly, though once I started, I’d usually drink until I passed out. To avoid embarrassing myself, I usually drank alone, though frequently I’d start drinking with friends and then go drink more alone. It’s possible my case may have been more stress than alcoholism, since I had much to be stressed about at the time, and I’ve never wanted to drink since. I even attended a few AA meetings–at least enough to realize I had almost nothing in common with those people. When I quit drinking, I started hanging out at a coffee shop. There I met a girl who was an alcoholic, and she started taking me to meetings with her. That relationship didn’t last, but I did learn that AA is a wonderful program for those who need it. Any friend of Bill’s is a friend of mine. There but for the grace of God go I.

@BidDaddySnuff. I just read an interesting book that has a fascinating theory on alcoholism–at least for those of European heritage. I’m sure you’ve notice that some people swear by high-carb vegetarian-type diets, while other people go for low-carb high-protein diets. It turns out that both are right. People who should be on a low-carb diet and aren’t tend to develop obesity and diabetes; those who should be on a high-carb diet and aren’t tend to develop heart disease. Before Europeans started farming ten thousand years ago, our ancestors were all hunter-gatherers. When the transition began from a low-carb hunter-gatherer diet to high-carb farmers’ diets, the human digestive system had to change as well. The problem is that the Celtic peoples remained herders (cowboys), which is close to hunter/gatherer, until very recently whereas Germanic and Mediterranean peoples have been farming for many thousands of years. What this means for purposes of our discussion is that the ability to drink alcohol responsibly came with having the farmers’ digestive system (farmers tended to consume huge quantities of beer and wine as food whereas herdsmen did not); those with the old Celtic herder digestive systems tend not to be able to handle alcohol as well. For example, since the American South is filled with Celts, the South had, and still has, relatively strict alcohol laws. This also explains why African Americans, and particularly Indians, suffer much higher rates of alcoholism than whites or east Asians. Whites and east Asians have been farming much longer, and have a much greater chance of having the farmer’s digestive system, which tends to handle alcohol better. Of course, this theory doesn’t explain other addictions.

@Dunnyveg This is very interesting and I would like to learn more about it because it makes perfect sense. Could you post or PM me the book title or author when you get the chance?

there’s also been some press recently about the connection between alcohol and anxiety. Alcohol relieves anxiety but causes a change in the brain that provokes more anxiety, so, having given relief one turns to self-medicating with more alcohol and a vicious downward spiral sets in. Here’s a link about it: “http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/2301/1/Brain-chemistry-ties-anxiety-and-alcoholism/Page1.html”

I think there is a lot to the genetic arguments. My Chinese friend can only drink about one bottle of beer before he starts feeling drunk, so he has stopped alcohol completely - most of his friends and family are the same. The theory is that tea drinking enabled them to build their great cities. Large concentrations of people can only survive when either safe drinking water, or a way of defeating water borne infections is present. The Chinese were able to live in enormous cities in the medieval period because of drinking boiled water with tea, which itself is mildly anti-bacterial. Western civilisation depended on ale or beer. It would have only been about 2% but enough to desensitise Westerners to alcohol to an extent.

oh there is definatily a lot of genetics or personal make-up which determines factors in addiction. Tobacco certainily works like that. In fact it effects people diffrentily. Most of the time people who are addicted to tobbaco show a diffrent reaction to nicotine then people who don’t find it addictive. Interestingily some people only get much effect from nicotine when drunk.

Big Daddy, since it is always good to cite one’s sources, I will make up for my lapse right now and provide the name of the book publicly. BTW, diet is NOT the major topic of this book, but only one evolutionary subject it discusses amongst many. The thesis of the book is that evolution has sped up somewhere between a magnitude of ten and one hundred times since humans started to develop agriculture around ten thousand years ago: http://www.amazon.com/The-000-Year-Explosion-Civilization/dp/0465020429/ref=sr\\_1\\_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346962359&sr=8-1&keywords=10%2C000+year+explosion Finally, let me add that I can’t say for sure that the arguments in this book are correct; nobody can. What I can say is that it is plausible and very interesting.

@Mouse, I don’t recall which book I read this out of, though I think 10,000 Year Explosion covers it, but I think two of the big causes of anxiety are the noise and business of modern life, and the fact that our lives have become so hectic. It is true that people worked almost infinitely harder physically in the past, but being farmers, the hard, hectic work was seasonal, with long periods in which there was little to do. Today, we don’t work as hard physically, but our lives tend to be very fast-paced–something we’re not evolutionarily programmed to deal with. As far as noise goes, the fin de siecle reactionary and early Zionist Max Nordau wrote a book titled “Degeneracy” in which he outlined how even in the late nineteenth century, mental illness rates were much higher in urban than rural areas. Again, I don’t know if Nordau is right, but the theory is interesting and plausible.

@Snuffster. It sounds as if you are familiar with the newer evolutionary studies. My understanding is that your contentions are correct. Europeans in particular had to develop an ability to tolerate alcohol because it was one way to clean their drinking water. Tea may be a good antibiotic, but not as good as ethanol.

Thebrewing of the alchoolis a bigpart of why it is safer.

@Dunnyveg - Thank you for the resource. I understand that it is just a theory but very interesting. Even more interesting is the pace at which information is becoming available to us. The magnitude of information thrown at us used to be measured on a yearly basis but can now be measured on a daily basis. It’s no wonder neurosis is also growing at an exponential rate. Silence is a rare commodity these days and people’s lives are being reduced to nothing but a low background hum that induces insanity! Thanks for the info.

@BigDaddySnuff: I agree on noise, and commotion in general, causing stress. I’m originally from the big city. Some years back, I moved out west of all the people in Texas to a very rural piece of property. The first thing I noticed was that the silence and stillness were almost palpable, and a bit unnerving at first. When it’s quiet at home, the only noise is the blood rushing through my head. Now I relish the quiet and stillness. In my opinion anyway, preempting stress sure beats trying to drink it away, or worse. Best to you…

If I could change one thing about people it’s how much noise they make. Seems rather senseless to me (literaly). Like they don’t even realize how they are. Silence is golden and the people who don’t think so, I think are idiots with heads of lead. Just my opinion maybe but still it is the way I feel.

I wish there was a double or triple agree. Life needs a mute button. I’m moved into a college dorm and I feel like the grinch sometimes. All that noise noise noise! Plus I can’t seem to sit anywhere in the cafeteria without hearing people talking about how wasted they were the night before or last weekend or how wasted they’re going to get tonight. I just sent an email asking for info from the sober people club but I’m sure they’ll be loud in their own way. Still feel like a fish out of water with everyone just beginning to do what I’ve just given up

I wish there was a double or triple agree. Life needs a mute button. I’m moved into a college dorm and I feel like the grinch sometimes. All that noise noise noise! Plus I can’t seem to sit anywhere in the cafeteria without hearing people talking about how wasted they were the night before or last weekend or how wasted they’re going to get tonight. I just sent an email asking for info from the sober people club but I’m sure they’ll be loud in their own way. Still feel like a fish out of water with everyone just beginning to do what I’ve just given up

how about d.a. and t.a.

I have been reflecting over the last six months on something that struck me as odd: Why is it that Men are more prone to alcoholism than Women? The meetings I would go to were mostly Men. I didn’t look up any stats but I’m willing to guess that a larger percentage of Men struggle with alcohol. I have my theories but I would like to hear what you guys think. Please give me an explanation as to why, if you agree with me, Men are more likely to become an alcoholic than Women are. If you say, “Men don’t deal with their feelings in a healthy way,” please give me an idea WHY you think they don’t. (For example) If you disagree, why. This could get interesting. Looking forward to your responses.

Good Lord, surely we are not all recovering alcoholics?!!? 

I recover every Saturday morning. I used to be a daily fall-down drunk. I just stopped doing it so often. Now I only drink on the weekend and I only do my hard drinking with certain people. I can get to be a real jerk when I get going on the beer, so I try to limit my audience.

@BigDaddySnuff Men don’t deal with feelings because one part of our gender role is that we don’t talk about feelings. Men are statistically more likely to become alcoholics it might have something to do with the way genes are passed on. In addition the way men deal with sad feelings is usually by being self destructive and lashing out. Women are more likely to bury those feelings within and taking it out on themselves, hence women are more likely to have eating disorders and men are more likely to have drinking disorders.

@BigDaddySnuff - I think historically they just hid it more through social pressure. But if you go out in any British city now you will see a lot of heavy drinking amongst females and they will get just as hooked as we were.

@TomStrasbourg “Gender role”, you justified my thinking. @Abraxas “social pressure”, looks like you are on the same wavelength. One of the hardest questions I have ever been asked is, “what does it mean to be a man?” Even better, “what does it mean to be a good man?” Things I have been looking at are the ways gender roles are defined, how men are seen in western culture, boys being raised different than girls. Are men viewed as disposable? Think of examples of how men are portrayed in the media. I think this line of thinking helped me to realize what really drove me into the abyss and to find a way to get back out of it.

The media, particularly movies, still portrays men in much the same way as Gary Cooper or John Wayne - there are just a few nods towards parity, ie the sexy gal gets to be a cop and shoot people but it’s really just window dressing - more fashion than anything else, because she still needs to crumple into the arms of the star role, who is male. Mainstream movies and fiction are made for mass appeal, ergo - not much change between the ears of us ordinary Joes’. I suspect most of us don’t think too much differently than our fathers in that respect. Are you saying that your drinking was linked to a macho world view? Where I grew-up you weren’t a man until you could drink and the common notion was that you couldn’t trust a man who didn’t. Ironically, my dad - WW2 vet, army boxing champion and snacks on nails - never touched a drop. I on the other hand…

The demographics in my community are largely retired, well off, or tourists; probably 40-50% female in the AA meetings I’ve gone to, partly 'cause the women aren’t working or are widows and they had too much time on their hands.

Woman tend to go to woman only meetings. And 13 stepping scares them off.

I’ve always felt having a pair of testicles was all the maniliness I need.

yeah woman drink as much as men basically. They used to hide it though. It’s amazing how many people have told me that when they where cleaning out grandma never had a drinks house after her death that they found evidence of massive boozing.

@Abraxas My drinking partially stemmed from an inferiority complex or not being able to fill my role as “man of the house”. I felt that no matter what I accomplished it wasn’t enough and of course this was totally self derived. Always trying to measure up to some made up character that was instilled in me by my father and how I thought the world measured me as a man. My drinking got out of control the day I got home from work to find my house empty and my two kids gone. My wife had packed up and moved 3000 miles away. I believe this incident reaffirmed the thoughts I had about myself and I began to self-destruct over a ten year period. It’s now that I am finally looking back to try to understand these imaginary roles (or memes) that I didn’t live up to. I found myself seeking validation through Women which only made the problem worse because they fed on my weakness. I would seek out Women to “rescue” in hopes they would worship me to give me that feeling of “manliness” I had been searching for. Well, that works for a few months and the cycle repeats itself. To break the cycle I searched for understanding. What is this Man/Women thing? How is it that I pay child support but don’t get to see my kids? Why, when I turn 18 am I forced to register for the military? Why is it that when I watch a TV show and a women kicks a man in the testicles or slaps his face it is accompanied by a laugh track but if a man commits the same abuse it is drama? Why is it that men don’t have birth rights? A women can choose to not be a mother any time she wishes yet a man chooses not to be a father he goes to jail. This is just a short list of the questions I have had bumping around my head for the past six months. The list is quit extensive. It would appear that feminism has gone full circle. The way men used to treat women a few short decades ago is now biting a new generation of men in the ass in a more extreme way. Abraxas you were in law enforcement so I am sure you have seen a lot of men pass through the system. Have you ever thought that sometimes, some of these guys are getting the short end of the stick? Particularly when it comes to domestic violence, which is another huge issue? Now I don’t mean to sound like a whiner here, I am just sharing some of the observations I have made with you guys to get a fresh set of eyes and a new perspective. I invite criticism and as I have said in another post, I am not easily offended so please don’t hold back because I am looking for some truth. Perhaps you guys can help shine some light on these issues that have been plaguing me for years. I addressed this to Abraxas but I am speaking to everyone on this thread so please chime in with your ideas.

@Mouse My first meeting was in a community just like the one you speak of. My first sponsor was wealthy and retired. I learned very quickly how important it is to find a sponsor that is more or less similar to you. Financially he never had to struggle which is a HUGE stress in peoples lives so I felt he just wasn’t getting what I was saying. I also found that AA for a lot of the people that attended that meeting treated it as “something to do”. It was more a place to go to get out of the house because there was nothing else to do. Don’t get me wrong, they were all great people but I had to find a different group after 6 months. It sure sucks firing a sponsor but we are still friends to this day. I don’t go to meetings as often as I used to but when I do I always go to a different one to keep it fresh.

@bob @TomStrasbourg I would agree with you. Men will tend to drink while women will cut, fall into eating disorders. I think drinking has always been more socially acceptable for men to do in public. The lines completely disappear when you enter the world of hard drugs then all bets are off. Granny will hide her hooch and take nips here and there while grandpa goes down to the pub with the guys and gets obliterated. Either way there are, “motherf%$^ing snakes on the motherF(ing plane!” lol

@BigDaddySnuff man or woman, we alkies tend to be egomaniacs with an inferiority complex. i feel you on the whole having to find different meetings. I’ve got a sponsor who says it isn’t a social club and I get pretty annoyed when people veer off course to just talk about their day when it has NOTHING to do with alcoholism. I’m not talking about people who mention a craving or difficult emotions occurring that day. A lot of meetings are too touchy-feely for me and some do feel like a social club, which is fine and dandy before and after the meeting but in the meeting itself I want to hear about how people stayed sober (not about fishing and their f@$%ing grandkids) so I know what works and how they relapsed so I know what doesn’t.

@TomStrasbourg That’s why I always favored closed men’s meetings. You get a tight group of guys together and pick a book/topic and you get a lot done. It’s amazing the things that get accomplished in these private groups. I think that if people who get put off by AA could experience a small private group they would view things differently. If it weren’t for the men’s groups I would have been gone a long time ago because quite frankly I can’t stand open meetings. LOL And Tom, if you haven’t been invited to a private group then I would highly recommend finding one or grabbing your sponsor and starting one. I have some great friends because of it.

You know I think booze is a hard drug. The stats are almost identical. The after effects very similar. I think one of the reasons it can be harder to stay off booze is because it’s very underestimated. Like you can do it with dinner.

@BigDaddySnuff - I worked on a domestic violence unit for two years, oddly enough. When I joined the DV unit the powers that be had just introduced a positive arrest policy which meant that a woman (or occasionally a man) had only to make an allegation of assault to get the partner arrested - no matter if the attending officer had reason to suspect the allegation was false. There were some abuses of that policy but, on balance, it had been brought in because of cases of domestic murder where the police had had warning signs but not taken the woman seriously. Law enforcement agencies are event led - or failure led, more accurately - when it comes to policy and SOPs, and there will always be collateral damage and unfairness.

and people that do that kind of thing have to be charming to some extent, because they suck so bad no one would have anythingto do with them if they did not lie their asses off.

@bob Pot isn’t a hard drug but it is one of the hardest for people to quit. I’ve known many people who could give up their booze, speed, pills, and heroin but not pot because like alcohol it is commonly used but the bad effects usually aren’t obvious right away and people underestimate it’s addictive and life-ruining potential. I think hard drug users associate pot with their adolescence when they first started drugs and figure it’s not as bad as what they were doing. I’ve had friends that were so bad they were considered sober if they only smoked pot.

@Abraxas Great info sir. It sounds like the system put into place in the U.K. functions a bit better than here in the states. @bob I can see where you are coming from when you say these guys are lying their asses off. However, I am privy to one guy who is actually run over by a policy much like the one Abraxas describes. My neighbor is constantly getting the shit beat out of him by his wife. This guy has always got some kind of wound, contusion, or abrasion on him. I can hear here screaming at him, calling him every name in the book, telling him to GTFO. I am not the kind of guy that calls the police but one time, during a beat down, he tried to get into his car and she was beating on him with a decent sized book. He finally gets the car door closed and puts it into drive instead of reverse and crashed into his garage door. I called the police because I thought she had rendered the dude unconscious. I could not believe my eyes when I saw him being taken to jail. He was arrested on a Friday so that meant he had to spend all weekend in jail. He finally gets home and the guy is totally pissed at me. He told me that is the reason he doesn’t call the police. I guess his wife is such a great manipulator that she can make the police think anything she wants them to and almost gets away with murder. Either way this guy had his ass handed to him and I learned a big lesson. Like you, I am asking myself why he doesn’t leave? Then I reflect and I can honestly say I have been in his shoes so I really can’t judge. He has worked his ass off to buy a house, support his wife, drive nice cars, and he clings to that vision of success he has in his mind. But damn, I will never forget the way I felt the day I saw him with his head hanging down, wearing a shiny new pair of handcuffs, on his way to jail. Man I know that feeling. Unfairness and collateral damage suck. Sometimes the treatment hurts worse than the disease. It’s stories like this that make me shake my head. Why do we do it?: Why subject ourselves to such harshness? It took me along time to know when to say when so maybe if I can expedite that process for another person then maybe I have done some good. Then again, you’re ready to change when it’s your time to change. Damn this over thinking head of mine! LoL. I sometimes wish I could just be ok with life and not question everything.

@TomStrasbourg Give me pot anyday. Give me a pot head to deal with. True I believe pot is an addiction and the goal in life is to find that place where we can reach these highs without the assistance of drugs but if I had to choose a drug it would be pot. Pot is psychologically addictive. The physical withdrawls aren’t there but inside you are crying like a baby because you need your blankey. I smoked pot the majority of my life and if I didn’t quit naturally, meaning I just got tired of using pot, but I quit because I had to, oh man the withdraw would be a bitch. Again though, I would use pot over a psych medication in a heartbeat. I do agree with you though Tom, a drug is still a drug and our goal is to be free from these vices. Shoot where would snuffhouse be if it weren’t for us junkies? lol I joke.

I was going through this thread a reading the posts again and wow I can see my addiction shining through. A normal rational person wouldn’t cling to these thoughts. I believe most people operate with the understanding that things will be made “right” over time. Well heck, I guess this is theraputic for me. Thank you guys for letting me exercise these demons. I am most grateful.

@BigDaddySnuff I’am sure there are guys like that. And woman who would use a policy like that are pretty much the same thing in my opinon as a man that abuses woman. In fact the statistics are that woman abuse men more then the other way around. Mainily cause it’s accepted because of the sexist notion that woman are nicer people and weaker too. Like your poor neighbor. The police tend to think it’s the mans fault. I personaly hate abusive people. I knew a girl once who attacked a guy and when he punched her back she was all you don’t ever hit woman and he was like I never have. Anything can be additive psychologicaly. I know we’re not supposed to talk about it but when I’ve run out of pot I’ve never had trouble going to work and getting things done. I’am of the persuasion that a lot of people who over do it have problems that it helps somewhat to a great deal with. When I run out of coffee watch the fuck out. I think all these issues are lot more complicated then we have time to discuss. I remember reading from one doctor who was an addiction specialist that you have to look at the whole picture. He said in his opinion some people need their addictions and would be worse without them. I agree to some extent. Case by Case.

@bob Awesome post brother! A study I read conducted by the FBI showed that 99% of men convicted of domestic violence were never violent in past or future relationships. It was just THAT particular relationship that got them in trouble. Again I have my theories as to why. When you said, “don’t ever hit a woman”, that got to me. Men are conditioned to never hit a woman but it’s ok to hit another man? See what I’m getting at? “Some people need their addictions and would be worse without them.” Man I couldn’t agree more. When we leave morality out of the equation and see situations on a personal level the whole paradigm changes. It seems we treat addiction as group thing when it is actually a personal thing. Doctors prescribe medication to eliminate suffering and addicts eliminate their suffering the same way. The problem is when it gets out of hand, as you mentioned, then life becomes unmanageable. Of course there are experimental treatments for addiction like, Ibogaine, LSD-25, MDMA, and others that are not excepted by medical communities because they are classified as “drugs”. It’s funny that one of the very founders of AA used LSD in conjunction with the program he helped start in order to get closer to god. People in AA don’t like to hear that these days. The point is that a lot of the problems addicts face are of a personal, spiritual, deeply rooted disenchanted nature. Each person sees the world through a different set of filters.

@BigDaddySnuff from what I read he tried LSD once. But that vision he describes in his story was likely induced by a med they gave him that had psilocybin or some psychedelic in it. He also had a mistress. I wondered if Bill practiced these principles in that affair too.

lsd is powerfull stuff. it’s on the other end from addictive drugs for sure.

@TomStrasbourg I thought he used LSD somewhat regularly but I will have to open the book that I read it in to double check. Somehow I recall Carl Jung being involved. I think having a mistress in those days was a commonly accepted practice among men. It doesn’t make it right but those were the times they lived in. Please don’t think I am slamming AA I was just raising a point that all modes of therapy should be considered if a person wants to become whole again. The classification of a drug as not having any medical value only stigmatizes a substance that could actually change a person’s life for the better. Psychedelics for me, even after I quit drinking, have been some of the most theraputic experiences that I could possibly have. In particular Ibogaine. I had to leave the country to use it under the care of an experienced professional but I can honestly say it has changed my life. Take into account this was only one treatment. Do I have some of the same tendencies as before? Of course, but I see things differently now. I saw people come to this retreat sick with heroin withdrawl, use Ibogaine and 12 hours later it was all gone. It was a freaking miracle. Nine months later these people are still sober. I think a more liberal approach to treatment possibilities would benefit all of society.

I think the chance of a psychedelic drug becoming addictive is very slim. The experiences are just too intense to handle on a regular basis.

@BigDaddySnuff Recovery is different strokes for different folks but personally I haven’t tried using psychedelics to recover because I know I’d just become obsessed with them (I tried and really liked mushrooms and DMT) plus I’ve tried the whole smoking pot and nothing else but even when I managed that life still sucked and I couldn’t maintain my spiritual program very long. I couldn’t even do a secular humanist “don’t be a dick” program for that matter. But the idea of an actual doctor taking those alternate approaches sounds alight and I have heard of psychedelics being used for that. I feel safer just meditating and praying and I’ve had some far out experiences drug free.

@bob I can see how some people would be better off just having their addiction. Tobacco and caffeine have become my socially/spiritually acceptable drugs of choice.

@TomStrasbourg Absolutely my friend. I would not advocate anyone follow my course of treatment. It’s a personal journey that i took because it fits my mentality. My point was to bring awareness to the fact that there are other ways. It was more of a thought that @bob had triggered in me. There are licensed medical doctors in the states that use LSD for treatment of cancer patients who have received a death notice as well to treat PTSD and addiction. They are underground but I have found them. I found this path through my interest in shamanism and reading about the plant medicine they employ called ayahuasca. After reading accounts of what the experiences were like and what the outcomes were I began to dig deeper. It is tough because you have to cross cultural boundaries and except a different world view which was hard for me at first. In the AA circle I am considered a bit blasphemous but in the rooms I keep my journey to myself and stick to the matter at hand. I don’t speak of this in recovery groups unless it is brought up first. Nonetheless I still attend the occasional meeting because it keeps me grounded and helps me to remember where I came from. Another cool thing you might like, Tom, is Holotropic breath work. If you search Stanislav Grof you will see what I am talking about.

At this time of day, I’m a little too exhausted to add anything really profound to this conversation… I just wanted to say that all you guys are awesome, and don’t let anyone tell you any different. Wishing y’all peace and happiness in your journeys :)>-

@Scurvy There you are brother! I was waiting for you to chime in since you are a C.O. and see the inner sanctum of darkness face to face everyday just like Abraxas used to. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated when you get a nap and feel up to it.

Ladies you are welcome to join as well.

I think the chance of a psychedelic drug becoming addictive is very slim. The experiences are just too intense to handle on a regular basis.

not in my experience; I was a daily user (lsd) for several years, and glad for it. Of course I’m crazy as a loon, but also quite sane–it helps in this society.

@Mouse Daily? I have heard of people going for a week or a month but years would be intense. So you were in a constant state of bliss? You should write a book about it. I’d read it! That’s a serious connection you had. Means you were close to chemist.

well, it was the '60s and I was working in a darkroom custom printing large portraits of debutants and publicity portraits of the Nixon family, ceos, and the supreme court while my friends were dying in Nam. Seemed the sanest thing to do. It was a full decade later that I nearly killed myself with alcholism. The spirit works in mysterious ways.

@Mouse Yes it does. One minute you’re on top of the world and the next you’re looking up at a pinhole of light from the bottom of a hole that you have dug for yourself. I’m thankful for the experience and wouldn’t change it if I could.

It is called alcoholism not alcoholwasum. You put down the drink problem solved NOT.There is still the ism that would be I,SELF AND ME. This is the thing that must change. Live the green card. Sweep your side of the street.Get out of your head by giving it away.Turn it over,surrender to win,Do the step work then reap the promises pg83&84. they will always materialize if you work for them. I walk the walk 24/7, it says trudge the road of happy destiny. Any question? call your sponsor

@basement_shaman AAmen to that brother.

It’s threads like this that make me especially glad I’ve joined up here.

Before Europeans started farming ten thousand years ago, our ancestors were all hunter-gatherers. When the transition began from a low-carb hunter-gatherer diet to high-carb farmers’ diets, the human digestive system had to change as well. The problem is that the Celtic peoples remained herders (cowboys), which is close to hunter/gatherer, until very recently whereas Germanic and Mediterranean peoples have been farming for many thousands of years. What this means for purposes of our discussion is that the ability to drink alcohol responsibly came with having the farmers’ digestive system (farmers tended to consume huge quantities of beer and wine as food whereas herdsmen did not); those with the old Celtic herder digestive systems tend not to be able to handle alcohol as well. For example, since the American South is filled with Celts, the South had, and still has, relatively strict alcohol laws. This also explains why African Americans, and particularly Indians, suffer much higher rates of alcoholism than whites or east Asians. Whites and east Asians have been farming much longer, and have a much greater chance of having the farmer’s digestive system, which tends to handle alcohol better. Of course, this theory doesn’t explain other addictions.

Thank you for explaining this @Dunnyveg. This answers some questions for me.

A study I read conducted by the FBI showed that 99% of men convicted of domestic violence were never violent in past or future relationships. It was just THAT particular relationship that got them in trouble.

@BigDaddySnuff Would you happen to still have a link to or copy of this study? I would love to read the specifics. My second marriage was similar to the story you described. It never got that bad, and the police were never involved, but my wife was abusive and sometimes violent. I never hit her, but I did have to force past her in a doorway or hallway to put some distance between us a few times, and I still have a scar on my arm from one night when she was doing her best to provoke me - to no avail. But man, could she push my buttons and get me angry. In fact, on topic, before this relationship alcohol only intensified good times - during this relationship, at some point I realized that alcohol intensified anger as well. Point is, it never happened with anyone else I’ve been with. I thought we big nasty patriarchal brutish men were the only ones that beat on people just because we can!

BigDaddySnuff, your comments here are poignant, and mirror some of my own self-discovery journey in some ways. Would love to compare notes sometime, at the very least on shamanism.

@TSpike It’s a great pleasure to have you join the forum and participate in this thread. WELCOME! I,for the life of me can’t remember which biography I am pulling my info from and I can’t find the book. A new book that was just was just released goes rather deeply into the matter: http://www.amazon.com/Distilled-Spirits-Forgotten-Philosopher-Hopeless/dp/0520272323/ref=sr\\_1\\_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1351013452&sr=1-1&keywords=distilled+spirits Here is a short article regarding the subject and the book: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alcoholics-theory Brother, I have also been in your shoes regarding an abusive relationship. Being pushed, shoved, yelled at to almost a breaking point. Perhaps not to the extent as my neighbor but still to a point that pushed limits. After all of these years of bad behavior I am finally sitting down to reflect and sift through all of these experiences, which has been a truly daunting task but has brought on an increased self awareness. @Tspike I have learned that sharing my experiences with other people has been a huge help, so please, if you would like to start a dialogue I am here to partake. Again, it’s great to have you here and you are among friends.

Thank you sincerely for the warm welcome!! Agreed; sharing our stories is not only therapeutic in itself, but reading a story similar to your own helps a great deal. I’ll PM ye. To the journey! ~O) (yes, that’s a splash of Chartreuse in my coffee)

I’ve debated on whether or not I was going to post here for weeks now but decided to today. I can’t say I’m a recovering alcoholic as I still go out once a week. I used to drink alot more 3 to 4 times a week. I never really had the feeling that I needed a drink or never got the shakes because I wasn’t drinking. A couple friends of mine went thru that even vomiting blood. During my friends court ordered rehab he told me that if I drink to excess even once a month I’m considered an alcoholic. So I guess I still am. Anyway even tho I consider myself not having a problem with alcohol I did use other drugs like Meth and cocaine almost everyday for about 3 years. Its been a long time since I used now thanks to the birth of my son. He just turned 7 in August so its been a long time now.

@distaind Hey Brother, Just my 2 cents. I believe it all comes down to how your drinking or drug use affects you life. How do you feel after drinking? How does it affect those around you? Intoxicating substances have been used by humans since we began to walk upright and make a time and a place to get together to partake. It’s a kind of bonding experience. Maybe you hanging out with your buddies and getting shit faced is just the “thing” your tribe does. It could be a completely harmless way of blowing off steam and dealing with life’s issues or staying connected. Of course I’m not you so I don’t know. People live their whole lives following this type is ceremonial gathering and it doesn’t make them an addict. There is a certain type belonging that comes about when you sit in a living room, or bar, or wherever to alter your mental state with those who are closest to you. I believe it is a vital part of the human experience. You may want to keep an eye on your intentions due to the fact you have used drugs in what can be seen as an “abusive” manner in the past. Again, I’m not you so I don’t know the circumstances regarding your drug use. It could have just been a phase of your life that got a little to comfortable and lasted longer than it should have. It still does not make you an addict. Obviously you came to your senses and changed your path. It is still good to check yourself from time to time. The fact that you have the ability to envision the future of your son shows that even if you think you may have a problem, you also have the ability to face it head on. When I was drinking I didn’t care about anything but to do as much harm to myself as possible. One of the hardest things I had to do when I realized things had to change was dump my current lifestyle and that included my friends. Trust me, your wife is a great barometer when it comes to your vices. I am sure she will let you know if you step out of line.

@distaind It doesn’t matter how much or how often you drink, I posted a few pages back. What make anyone an alcoholic is when you take that first drink it creates the phenomenon of craving. So one is too many and a hundred isn’t enough. It an alergic reaction ,basically you invite spirits into your body and they take control.There is a turning point when you cross the line. Alcoholism is a three fold disease it effect you mentally, physically and spiritually.And it usually takes bankruptcy in one or more of these conditions before someone is willing and wanting recovery.

Well in that case I can’t consider myself an alcoholic. I have the will of Kaiser sossay (or however you spell it) except shooting the wife and kids…well maybe the wife. No just a joke. lol. With my drug use I knew it was getting a bit outta control but I slowed down before my son was born and when he was it was just the kick in the face I needed. I never stole or did anything I was ashamed of besides the actual drug use. When I stopped I came clean with my family and the few good friends I had left. Its been years since Ive had a thought of using again. Although narcotics and alcohol are completely different the human aspect makes them quite similar so I thought I would Share my story here as well.

they pretty similar.

Lol you know I mean or meant to say…well maybe. :-?

something like that. I don’t see huge diffrences between all these things. Especialy since it’s all who is involved. For instance I could never have a problem with cocaine as I don’t likehow it feels.

@distaind Glad you shared. You have a good head on your shoulders and a good heart. I don’t think you have much to worry when it comes to navigating through life’s rocky parts.

@distaind You may not be an alcoholic; But a heavy drinker can become toxic with daily drinking and Binge drinkers can have blackouts. So everything in moderation. I am so envious, I loved drinking but I can’t do it. I had my share and then some. You hit bottom when you stop digging!

I used to have issues with other substances that landed me in a few hospitals and outpatients, but that’s all behind me and it’s been around 4 years now and I won’t ever let myself go back. I know that many people say such things, but the majority of them really don’t believe themselves and or don’t mean it, because I was one of them back then. That’s not me anymore. But really, addiction/dependance with any substance is all the same, so I most certainly fit the profile. The only mind altering thing I touch these days is beer (no liquor for this guy) and I only drink once in a while.

I’m one of those guys who had phases of regularly toking (usually 2 to 5 x daily when I had it) and LSD (prob averaged out to 1 to 3x per month) and it does seem these are less addicting than many legal substances in a sense. That being that it’s not that hard to stop doing them once you get the feeling that you want to (it was my experience and has been the same w/some of me chums). Neither destroyed my life, but cost a fair amount of cash, and may have sometimes made me less social- but sometimes more, go figure. I don’t know if you would call me an addict, I haven’t toked in- I figure- 12 or 14 years, but I do think about it now and then still, wishing it was legal and regulated/tested for purity from nasty substances. I’ve held a one-hitter in my hand and was tempted, but declined in the end. But to go without some kind of coffee or tea is so unlikely, especially when my regular (likely migraine) headaches start. Also the drive for nicotine, I don’t have to tell you guys about that. Fortunately I can drink some but not daily, and usually 1 to 3 drinks a night when I do. I don’t know how normal I am. To add a bit more of a rant, and this is not an uncommon sentiment, those who drink and bitch about drug use are hippocrites(sp?). Pardon my venting people, please…

A few years ago my wife told me I was drinking too much (about 4-5 pints of cider a day, mostly with meals, but definitely on the up) and so I cut down. I’d never thought about it untill she said. Now I have maybe 2 on a Friday and Saturday, 1 or 2 on a Sunday and thats it. Obviously I wasn’t an alcoholic (although I did drink an obscene amount at university in Sheffield), but i guess its all comparative depending on the individual. I think I do have a predisposition to addictive behavior, I get very into certain things for a short period of time, be it some music or dressing a certain way etc, but thanks to my wife I’ve managed to dodge the bullet when it comes to alcohol.

Pickels the drummers goes to rehab http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player\\_embedded&v=I\\_GaD8Gvzi4

Over two years sobriety for me. I was a binge drinker, I could get through a day at work or wherever without needing alcohol, but I would go to the pub straight after work and most nights stay until closing. Weekends would be drinking from early afternoon, often until closing. I lost a couple of women over it and should have lost a few friends too but somehow they forgave my numerous indiscretions. Financially, it left me in a lot of debt which I’m still paying off now. It effected my work massively and was definitely a factor in me getting chosen for redundancy three months before my daughter was due. A couple of weeks before she was born, two things hit me. Firstly, on a practical, immediate level, I realised that at any moment my girlfriend might go into labour and that it was now MY responsibility to get her to the hospital, nobody else’s (I had only recently passed my driving test at the ripe old age of 27 and bought my first car with my redundancy payout). Secondly, I didn’t know if I was going to be a good father. I’d never liked kids before in the slightest and I wasn’t sure if I would make a good dad or not. One thing I knew with certainty though was that I would make a terrible father if I kept drinking. So I stopped. That was August 2010 and (and I really hope this doesn’t sound too smug) it hasn’t been difficult. It was a simple equation, what did I love more, beer or my daughter? If that’s a difficult question for you, you probably shouldn’t have kids.