Artisan vs. Mass Produced--A Different Angle

I confess that I am still a bit troubled by the dislike or what seems to be in some cases, resentment, that some snuff lovers have toward artisan snuffs. I want to address this point here in this thread. This opening post will be rather long, but I ask that you hear me out, before you tell me I am delusional. What worries me here is that maybe for a few of us (very few), deep down behind the stated arguments, and beyond posted criticisms of the artisan snuffs, maybe some critics of artisan snuffs simply do not like that artisan snuffs tend to be more expensive. I would hate to think that this criticism and this controversy is actually a series of complaints about pricing and money. But perhaps this is the case for some folks. HOWEVER and here is my central point… On the other hand, some people may really be genuinely critical of artisan snuffs and for a good reason… But it may have more to do with their range of taste preferences and their ability to taste… anything at all. For example, I remember a very wealthy lawyer who regularly attended our blind tastings when I was in the wine business. He was a big spender (money was never a problem) and bought highly expensive wines, and as we all know, the most expensive snuffs are dirt cheap when compared to rare and/or fine wines. One day he confided in me that the most expensive wines (the high priced Bordeaux and Bourgogne) were not all that great to him and he wondered if there was something wrong with him or if there was something he was missing. He had been buying the highly expensive bottles. So, he being a good and loyal customer and a good guy, I made it a point to analyze his preferences in the blind tastings that occurred from that point forward. In blind tastings, participants rate the wines they taste before finding out what it says on the labels. It turned out that he did not like wines with a high amount of complexity. What he always rated highest were wines of great power and concentration–high impact and big flavors–but not much finesse or complexity at all. So I pointed out to him that these wines were his consistent choices. I followed that message by telling him that was I was going to save him a lot of money by advising that he should not buy the complex, finesse wines any longer even if they did have corresponding big flavors. The guy had a classic “AHA” moment of insight and he told me then, and later, that I had helped him to more greatly enjoy his love of wine. It seemed that complexity actually interfered with his enjoyment of wine. I found other customers who had this same tasting profile. Could it be that there is a parallel in the snuff world? Some people may not like snuffs that are highly complex, such as those commonly found among the artisan styles. It may be that they like a more simple style with good quality scents and big flavor of course but without the complexity. High Dry Toast, for example, is only mildly complex snuff to me, but it is a big flavor, powerful snuff in its taste profile (not talking about nicotine). And whatever complexity there may be in HDT, it takes a back seat to the big flavor. But snuffs like Nigel’s @Abraxas Connoisseur Cerise, Cafe 11, and Prince Regent or Johnny’s Moro Moro, Aluld Alliance, or Roslein from @Johnny are highly complex (it seems to me). And Daniel’s @chefdaniel Butternut Toast, Melba Toast, Calypso, and Antebellum are remarkably complex. Since Daniel is very open about revealing his many ingredients in each of his snuffs, it is easy to see how complex his snuffs are and the highest quality tobacco that he uses. But as nearly as I can tell, all three of these guys use the highest quality tobacco. So what is the point? It may be that a possible source of criticism of artisan snuffs by some of us here on Snuffhouse is that some people simply do not like complexity in a snuff, just as my lawyer friend in wine. It may be that the complexity just “gets in the way” of enjoying the flavor of the snuff. Similarly, I would like to know if the critics of Artisan snuffs enjoy mass produced snuffs that have a good amount of complexity, such as Dholakia’s FUBAR Shot of Rum, SG’s Firedance, or Toque’s Spanish Gem, or WoS Prince George. In addition, there may also be a parallel in the world of pipe tobacco. For example, a long time, highly knowledgeable pipe and tobacco collector in Baltimore told me that he likes my Wilderness blend (designed by me and made by McClelland) but would not buy it again because, as he put it, “Fred, there is just too much going on in that stuff.” And that may be the essence of the complexity issue in a nutshell. Some people like that there is a lot going on (such as myself) and some people don’t. And the artisans, Nigel, Johnny, and Daniel are masters of complexity. That is my opinion until you talk me out of it.

I think you may have nailed it on the matter of palate differences. It does appear that there are some distinct palate profiles one can observe by following who is snuffing what in the main thread. In one of the older threads on the topic, I got the impression from the original poster that he viewed lovers of artisan snuffs as elitist hipster snobs. While admittedly there might be a small element of luxury in buying an Abraxas, SWS, or Old Mill snuff, as you pointed out, they are a fraction of the cost of a good wine. Also, we can see that those of us who enjoy artisans come from all walks of life.

Hmmm… This is a very complicated [complex! ;-)] post. For starters I can’t personally really see how anyone can knock artisan snuff makers other than: Subjectively they don’t like the scent, grind, or other aspect of the snuff; or they find the pricing or availability of these snuffs to be elitist and don’t like that - Hey, these [our artisan producers] are guys who are following their passion for snuff and trying to reinvigorate it and revitalise snuff culture, prima facie; what’s not to like (in my humble option)? I believe that there’s a little bit of cheap (but nice!) in us all however, even elitists like a bargain on the quiet. Likewise I guess if your new to snuff, you could be on MrSnuff or wherever and thinking to yourself “Hey I could have three different types of snuff for the price of this one tin”. I consider most would agree that the artisan snuffs are rarely ‘all day’ numbers. I find your wine analogy intriguing, and also pertinent as I used to be in the wine business a long time ago myself. I’m a big fan of Bordeaux and Bourgogne actually… But, I don’t drink wine these days much, and at the price of these wines when your out to dine, that’s just as well. I still like them, but they are very much a ‘treat’ for me, I can’t justify paying that kind of money in the everyday and I wouldn’t at heart want to drink Gevrey Chambertin Pemier Cru, or Puligny-Montrachet in the everyday anyways - They would loose there special qualities. My wife won’t drink either of these wines and, would spit them out in favour of a nice bottle of Barefoot white Zinfandel (I’ve tried training her; she’s half terrier!!). A nice beer and some HDT is a fine combination and day of the week and is an affordable luxury! I guess what I trying rather clumsily to say, is that even though the economies of scale with snuff are much narrower, it’s a simple case of horses for courses here surely? I guess that some people will buy the most expensive of anything and tell you that it smells of bitter almonds and freshly mown grass etc. but hey, these are the people who struggle to park their Bentley or Porsche :)) Doing it for the love of it seems to be paramount to me :slight_smile:

@fredh Nicely said. Great comments/responses from @cpmcdill and @MisterPaul. Any sensory pursuit, be it snuff, food, wine, music or other, is a highly personal endeavor, and we all have our own emotions, feelings, moods, experiences and other background baggage being brought to bear on the experience. There is no wrong. There is no right. It just is. It is frustrating to encounter a personality that insists that anyone that disagrees with their opinions is a neanderthal, philistine or miscreant, although I plead guilty to all of the aforementioned positive personality traits loudly and proudly. There have been a few here that use this forum and their keyboards to vent their hostility, but they are rare. The few that pursue that line of commentary are roundly and soundly shunned into going elsewhere to indulge their inner spoiled brat so that the rest of us can enjoy each others’ company talking about our hobby. One good perusal of the “What’s in your nose” thread reveals that the majority of us enjoy snuff in all its glory; artisan, commercial, plentiful or rare. It doesn’t matter. It’s all good. Otherwise it wouldn’t be around long enough to show up on anyone’s radar. Cheers

The average person has 2.5% Neanderthal genes. Just sayin’.

The average person has 2.5% Neanderthal genes. Just sayin’.

LOL… AND Half of the population is, mathematically and irrefutably, below average in intelligence. Just sayin’. ;))

Guess I’ll have a pinch of Old Mill Miscreant, I’d have chosen Philistine but the good chef doesn’t make that one, as far as I know.

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@Mouse That might get me thinking. I hope I don’t get a headache.

@chefdaniel a middle eastern themed snuff could be interesting

@hgrissom Check out Arabesque on the site: http://www.oldmillsnuff.com/ramblings.html I’ll likely add some other Middle Eastern spices to the finished snuff when it’s ready to finish. I’ll keep you posted. It’s still marinating (for lack of a better term) so will be a few months off. Cheers

@chefdaniel I will certainly be ordering that when it becomes available,probably pistachio too

The average person has 2.5% Neanderthal genes. Just sayin’.

Not Africans or Asians they have practically none, it was the Europeans who interbred with Neanderthals that’s what gave them immunity to European bacteria and diseases.

I wonder if redheads like Viking snuffs? They say if you have red hair that you have Viking in your blood. Silly, I know Viking snuff isn’t made by Vikings. But words are powerful; would you still buy it if it’s name was Weaklings Snuff ?

Some interesting points made here. Pallate differences do of course make a difference for every single user. For me the obstacles tend to be find grind and acrid drip, and though there are many artisan snuffs I haven’t sampled, I have essentially stopped trying as the general trend was they wouldn’t work for me, even when I really liked the scents. As such, I agree that personal taste (and tasting abilities) make a difference, but there are more reasons to like or dislike a snuff. On the complexity vs simplicity arguement, I take a simplistic view of the overall effect. There will be snuffs I like that are multi faceted and others that are less complex, just as there will be in ones I don’t like. I don’t savour the subtle nuances of a snuff, just enjoy (or not) the overall effect. The complexity of a snuff is often lost on me, but in and of itself won’t make or break a snuff as I reflect upon the whole rather than the details of it’s construction. So from a purely personal perspective I cannot 100% support this theory either. On the issue of price, assuming a snuff (whoever makes it) is to your liking, snuff is very very cheap. The best way to realise how cheap snuff really is, is to consider the number of hours of enjoyment that a given snuff will offer. This will not vary just by maker, but also by the variation of pinch sizes and frequency that the particular snuff is taken by. This method of measuring “value” might actually make some artisan snuffs “cheaper” than some mass produced snuffs. The root of the issue is whether the artisan snuffs are worth it. The answer is yes for some people, and no for others. There’s nothing wrong with either of those people’s standpoints. If you like it and it’s worth it for you, go get it. If you can’t abide it through taste, price, or some socio-economic or pseudo-political standpoint, leave it alone. The artisans all appear to be doing well in their endeavours, and I tip my cap to them. They are making a range of popular products and are making many people’s noses very happy. I will likely remain a non-user of the artisan snuffs for my own reasons, and others may refrain for different reasons. However, does it all really matter? I think not. With all due respect to @fredh I think this is being over analysed. It’s fine to like any kind of snuff, just as it’s fine to not like it. As individuals we all have our own perception filters both physical and psychological, and so long as someone isn’t just being a mindless troll to whip up a shit storm about something, do we really need to “diagnose” why someone doesn’t like a snuff or range of snuffs that we love?

Its all good :(|)

With all due respect to @fredh I think this is being over analysed.

Howdy @50ft_trad. In your rather long post above, were you over analyzing what you accused me of over analyzing? :wink: Either way, I would not have posted on this point if there wasn’t a bit of tension on the subject, and the intention of my posts was merely to ease some of the tension here. It does not appear that I have been successful in my attempt. In any case, I respect your viewpoint. You are obviously a smart guy But I can’t help but wonder why you identify yourself and declare yourself, seemingly categorically, to be a “non-user of the artisan snuffs.” Aren’t there at least one or two of them, out of the dozens of artisan mixtures, that you like, or is your avoidance of artisan snuffs more of a matter of principle? There are so many different artisan snuffs that I find it difficult to believe that you don’t like ANY of them. Is there more that you have not told us on this point. Like I said, you are a smart guy and I am sure you have reasons beyond what you have stated, because your reasons for being “a non-user” are not convincing. But that could also be because I am not bright enough to get your points. Whatever the case, speaking generally, I would bet that a high percentage of people who are self-declared “non-users of artisan snuffs” would find it difficult to pass a blind tasting test, to perceive the differences, between some selected artisan snuffs and some mass produced snuffs-- with the grind not withstanding. I could be wrong of course, but I am speaking from years of experience, personal and professional, studying how people perceive events and experiences. As you know, our minds are powerful functions, and they often fool us in ways that we seldom comprehend or control. And our minds also sometimes prevent us from having worthwhile experiences even when we think we are being entirely rational and logical. I am NOT saying that this is the case for YOU, but I am “just sayin’” that it is likely the case for a good many of us. Like I said, I respect your viewpoint.

With all due respect to @fredh I think this is being over analysed.

Howdy @50ft_trad. In your rather long post above, were you over analyzing what you accused me of over analyzing? :wink:

@fredh That made me smile :smiley: Firstly, fine snuffs are a problem for me. It doesn’t matter who makes them, they just don’t work in my nose. I have very narrow nostrils and it’s like having sniffer tubes permanantly fitted. I tried every technique in the book before eventually deciding to stop wasting my money and stick to the snuffs I enjoy using. As such I stick to fluffy and coarser snuffs, with only occasional pinches of a flavoured Toque or WoS snuff in their standard grinds, which even then can go a bit wrong unless I already have a snout full of a plain coarse snuff to “catch” the occasional treat. It’s purely an anatomical issue with me, and to reitterate the point, is not exclusive to artisan or mass produced snuffs. I did try various coarser artisan snuffs. Two of which that spring to mind and had wonderful scents are Creme de Fig and Mull of Oa by SWS. These were two very delightful snuffs which I unfortunately had to trade away due to a prohibitively acrid drip. It was a drip so severe that it was difficult to remove by anything other than a good slug of whisky or three. It was also a drip I wasn’t often experiencing with other products. These were not the only two coarser artisan snuffs I tried, but discussing the ones I tried and following discussions of other coarser artisan snuffs, I discovered that other users had also experienced an acrid drip. Once again, I decided to stop wasting my money and stick to snuffs I enjoy using. I don’t have anything against the artisan snuffs other than the fact they don’t seem to work for me. Several other snuffs do work for me, so I use and enjoy those instead. I see no reason to go through each and every snuff (artisan or otherwise) to see if there might just happen to be one or two which buck the prevailing trends. That seems like a futile thing to attempt when there are many other snuffs I can already enjoy. I confess that at first I did get frustrated with my experiences of these snuffs, and wondered whether it was group psychology at play that was boosting the popularity of these products, or if it was just me and why that may be so. Since then however, I have accepted my tastes for what they are, and enjoy the snuffs that work for me. As to your comments of alleviating tensions, I hold no tensions regarding the topic of artisan snuffs, except possibly for being judged for not liking them :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: (joke)

I ought to add that Babaton Blue and one of the F&T (I forget which) coarser snuffs have given me drip issues in the past too, so again this isn’t strictly limited to artisan produced snuffs, though it seems that these are more likely to present the issue I am quite content with Berwick Brown (fantastic snuff!!!), Best Dark, Brunswick, and a range of GH and SG snuffs as my staples, and the occasional pinch of other WoS and Toque offerings. I’m also quite partial to some of the F&T range too. Despite my comments throughout this thread, I feel far from restricted in the range of snuffs I can enjoy, and appreciate the efforts by all makers who continually work to expand the horizons for snuff users worldwide. I personally choose to consume a comparatively smaller range of snuffs due to having an awkward nose, but my enjoyment of snuff does in no way suffer as a result. I’m sure there’s guys out there who only ever use one single snuff, just as there are others who enjoy the vast majority of products on offer globally. We are all different, and thankfully there are more than enough snuffs and snuff makers around this rock to keep everyone here happy

Hello @50ft_trad. Thank you for your thoughtful response. Your explanation makes sense although there are SO many different artisan formulations with so many different grinds and also those that do not have an acrid drip that it seems to me that, you might like some of those snuffs. But on the other hand, if you say that you already have snuffs that you like, then so be it. I know of no rule in the Cosmic Book of Divine Snuff Regulations that says we have to try everything. When I said that I was trying to ease tensions on this subject I was not referring to you at all. I was talking about some of our Snuffhouse bretheren such as the poster to whom @cpmcdill referred when he said in the second post in this thread (above), “In one of the older threads on the topic [artisan vs mass], I got the impression from the original poster that he viewed lovers of artisan snuffs as elitist hipster snobs.” I did not detect any animosity or disdain on your part toward artisan snuff lovers. What the disdainful folks often criticize is the price of the artisan snuffs and state that there is no added quality or value to them. I have communicated with the 3 artisan snuff makers mentioned throughout this thread. They are so honest and conscientious that they would rather stand in the middle of a highway and get hit by a 26 foot truck and trailer then overcharge people or give them poor quality. I know that they use the highest quality tobacco and ingredients. So… For the sake of my curiosity, please, @50ft_trad, tell me your favorite 5 or 10 snuffs (including the ones you named in your last post) that you said you are happy with. I would very much like to know, if you don’t mind sharing. Thanks.

@hgrissom Check out Arabesque on the site: http://www.oldmillsnuff.com/ramblings.html I’ll likely add some other Middle Eastern spices to the finished snuff when it’s ready to finish. I’ll keep you posted. It’s still marinating (for lack of a better term) so will be a few months off. Cheers

Arabesque looks great @chefdaniel, does this mean we will be seeing a hummus snuff in the near future, or a baklava snuff, or a grape leaf flavored snuff? Or how about a kibbi nayeh snuff! :-S

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